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Thread: Jomon and Okhotsk - A slight confusion regarding the Ainu

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    Jomon and Okhotsk - A slight confusion regarding the Ainu

    When it comes to the ethnogenesis of the Ainu, I tend to come across varying descriptions as how they were formed.

    The mainstream theory was that the Ainu were a mixture of Okhotsk people and the Satsumon cultures. Satsumon being Jomon derived, and Okhotsk having links to populations of Northeast Asia. Possibly coming down from the Amur river and having links to people such as the Nivkh and Itelmen.

    One take is that the Satsumon migrated northwards, and displaced/assimilated the Okhotsk people of Hokkaido, with the Satsumon being the main component which then is responsible for the Ainu language. Later they continued this trend and migrated into Salakhin. Others argue for a more significant contribution of the Okhotsk, one feature often pointed towards to was the bear cult of the Okhotsk culture, which the Jomon didn't have but the Ainu later did. I've also come across several articles which postulate that the Okhotsk was the primary cultural and linguistic ancestor of the Ainu (guessing also genetically then).

    I've been reading some of the articles which go over the Jomon period and it has me a little confused to say the least. What I can gather is that after the initial migration to Japan there were continuous influxes of ancestry from East Asia, which lead to the populations over time gradually gaining admixture. How much though? I'm also seeing several descriptions of the Jomon thus being genetically heterogeneous and diverse, but what kind of heterogenity and diversity are we talking about here?

    For example I've seen the Ainu described as majority Jomon+minority Japanese (mostly recent), but this was based on Hokkaido Jomon genomes, which could have a different profile from the Jomon on southern Honshu. This brings me to the main point of this thread - how much genetic ancestry do the Ainu people carry of from the peoples of the Okhotsk culture?

    Unless if Hokkaido Jomon themselves were highly admixed with peoples similar to the Okhotsk culture, then a model of Hokkaido Jomon + Yamato Japanese does not gel with the idea that the Okhotsk culture were the predecessors of the Ainu. Or am I missing something here?

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    We're crippled here by a lack of publicly available Ainu genomes to explore (pretty outrageous really), but that historic Sakhalin hunter-gatherer genome modelled well as mostly Jomon-like with Amur River Basin (Nivkh) admixture. It didn't even need Japanese ancestry.

    Last edited by Michalis Moriopoulos; 06-28-2021 at 07:15 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michalis Moriopoulos View Post
    We're crippled here by a lack of publicly available Ainu genomes to explore (pretty outrageous really), but that historic Sakhalin hunter-gatherer genome modelled well as mostly Jomon-like with Amur River Basin (Nivkh) admixture. It didn't even need Japanese ancestry.

    Oh damn I totally missed this one, thanks!

    Yeah the Ainu started expanding into Sakhalin by the middle ages, and the japanese ancestry amongst Ainu is predominantly from recent periods. It's also the most northern of the Ainu that crossed isles, it might've been a little different in southern Hokkaido regarding japanese ancestry.

    But if an 19th/20th century Ainu from Sakhalin is 60% Jomon/33% Nivkh, after presumably having lived proximate to the Nivkh and related peoples for centuries, then I guess this means that the people who crossed over were basically very much Jomon. Unless if we actually get some modern Ainu genomes and they turn out identical to this but with Japanese ancestry on top of it.

    I noticed that the Jomon picked up a tiny amount of Yana/ANE (with the worst distances imagineable of course), would you say that was possible (northern microblades) or a G25 construct? The excess Kolyma is also interesting as shouldn't there be a bit of that amognst the Nivkh already?

    What I also would like to get my hands on are Satsumon culture samples, especially from Honshu. The Emishi are pretty strognly associated with them and although it is clear they were Jomon derived peoples, ethnolinguistically it is a bit of question mark. It would be interesting to see if they did have earlier Yayoi ancestry. They were the early adopters of horse warfare in Japan, despite their northernly location (horse culture likely came by way of the Korean peninsula). Pretty cool. It's kinda crazy how recent all that stuff went down.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michalis Moriopoulos View Post
    We're crippled here by a lack of publicly available Ainu genomes to explore (pretty outrageous really), but that historic Sakhalin hunter-gatherer genome modelled well as mostly Jomon-like with Amur River Basin (Nivkh) admixture. It didn't even need Japanese ancestry.

    What about the dataset that was released with the paper "Ancient Jomon genome sequence analysis sheds light on migration patterns of early East Asian populations"? The dataset has these individuals.

    Code:
              2120001A02 U       Ainu
              2120001A03 U       Ainu
              2120001A04 U       Ainu
              2120001A05 U       Ainu
              2120001A06 U       Ainu
              2120001A08 U       Ainu
              2120001A12 U       Ainu
              2120001B02 U       Ainu
              2120001B03 U       Ainu
              2120001B05 U       Ainu
              2120001B06 U       Ainu
              2120001B08 U       Ainu
              2120001B10 U       Ainu
              2120001B12 U       Ainu
              2120001C01 U       Ainu
              2120001C02 U       Ainu
              2120001C03 U       Ainu
              2120001C04 U       Ainu
              2120001C05 U       Ainu
              2120001C06 U       Ainu
              2120001C08 U       Ainu
              2120002A01 U       Ainu
              2120002A02 U       Ainu
              2120002A03 U       Ainu
              2120002A04 U       Ainu
    https://www.nature.com/articles/s42003-020-01162-2

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    Another question I'd like to ask is what everyone thinks of the Y-dna scenario in Japan. There is a pretty disproportianal amount of D clades when compared to the amount of Jomon ancestry the Japanese have (Ainu excluded).

    Was there a male-biased introgession as early Jomon and Yayoi peoples interacted, or did this develop over time? Or is it a founder effect, the result of a relative small amount of Jomon men gaining prominent status in Yayoi/Kofun/Yamato Japan?

    Maybe Emishi people were recruited as warriors and then their descendants later became part of the samurai class or something? Nothing too serious, just thinking out loud here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by teepean47 View Post
    What about the dataset that was released with the paper "Ancient Jomon genome sequence analysis sheds light on migration patterns of early East Asian populations"? The dataset has these individuals.

    Code:
              2120001A02 U       Ainu
              2120001A03 U       Ainu
              2120001A04 U       Ainu
              2120001A05 U       Ainu
              2120001A06 U       Ainu
              2120001A08 U       Ainu
              2120001A12 U       Ainu
              2120001B02 U       Ainu
              2120001B03 U       Ainu
              2120001B05 U       Ainu
              2120001B06 U       Ainu
              2120001B08 U       Ainu
              2120001B10 U       Ainu
              2120001B12 U       Ainu
              2120001C01 U       Ainu
              2120001C02 U       Ainu
              2120001C03 U       Ainu
              2120001C04 U       Ainu
              2120001C05 U       Ainu
              2120001C06 U       Ainu
              2120001C08 U       Ainu
              2120002A01 U       Ainu
              2120002A02 U       Ainu
              2120002A03 U       Ainu
              2120002A04 U       Ainu
    https://www.nature.com/articles/s42003-020-01162-2
    Ikawazu Jomon PCA (A) and ADMIXTURE K=15 (B).png

    Looking at the ADMIXTURE components there are some Ainu who max out at 100% Jomon component.
    Can't tell if there's Ulchi related ancestry but at least one sample has some Koryak component, but that could translate to a lot of Ulchi ancestry.

    I think @Generalissimo/Davidski utilizes PLINK bed files in G25 analysis.
    Last edited by Norfern-Ostrobothnian; 06-28-2021 at 09:07 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CopperAxe View Post
    Oh damn I totally missed this one, thanks!

    Yeah the Ainu started expanding into Sakhalin by the middle ages, and the japanese ancestry amongst Ainu is predominantly from recent periods. It's also the most northern of the Ainu that crossed isles, it might've been a little different in southern Hokkaido regarding japanese ancestry.

    But if an 19th/20th century Ainu from Sakhalin is 60% Jomon/33% Nivkh, after presumably having lived proximate to the Nivkh and related peoples for centuries, then I guess this means that the people who crossed over were basically very much Jomon. Unless if we actually get some modern Ainu genomes and they turn out identical to this but with Japanese ancestry on top of it.

    I noticed that the Jomon picked up a tiny amount of Yana/ANE (with the worst distances imagineable of course), would you say that was possible (northern microblades) or a G25 construct? The excess Kolyma is also interesting as shouldn't there be a bit of that amognst the Nivkh already?

    What I also would like to get my hands on are Satsumon culture samples, especially from Honshu. The Emishi are pretty strognly associated with them and although it is clear they were Jomon derived peoples, ethnolinguistically it is a bit of question mark. It would be interesting to see if they did have earlier Yayoi ancestry. They were the early adopters of horse warfare in Japan, despite their northernly location (horse culture likely came by way of the Korean peninsula). Pretty cool. It's kinda crazy how recent all that stuff went down.
    As far as I can tell, the Ainu were originally mostly Jomon descended with a substantial Amur admixture as well, and this was the profile of the Okhotsk culture which then expanded into Honshu and interacted with the Satsumon culture and northwards into Sakhalin etc.

    The Satsumon culture was probably also at least partially Jomon descended, but their level of admixture with the incoming Yayoi farmers is a matter of debate in lieu of aDNA. However, I think the dominant theory is that the Ainu ancestral culture was essentially already formed by the time it came into contact with Satsumon. I consider the northern Satsumon Ainu theory to be less likely based on cultural and archaeological evidence.

    The ancestral Ainu probably incorporated Satsumon influences after their formation, not during. Or you could see it as a two step process, first Okhotsk culture forms in Hokkaido from Jomon and Amur groups, then Satsumon contributes and merges with Okhotsk to complete the formation of the ancestral Ainu culture as it was when Japanese people encountered it.
    Last edited by Psynome; 06-28-2021 at 10:05 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CopperAxe View Post
    Another question I'd like to ask is what everyone thinks of the Y-dna scenario in Japan. There is a pretty disproportianal amount of D clades when compared to the amount of Jomon ancestry the Japanese have (Ainu excluded).

    Was there a male-biased introgession as early Jomon and Yayoi peoples interacted, or did this develop over time? Or is it a founder effect, the result of a relative small amount of Jomon men gaining prominent status in Yayoi/Kofun/Yamato Japan?

    Maybe Emishi people were recruited as warriors and then their descendants later became part of the samurai class or something? Nothing too serious, just thinking out loud here.
    I don't have anything definitive to add, but theoretically we can examine the founder effect question by looking at the Y phylogeny. Any Japanese Y-hg specialists out there?

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    Quote Originally Posted by teepean47 View Post
    What about the dataset that was released with the paper "Ancient Jomon genome sequence analysis sheds light on migration patterns of early East Asian populations"? The dataset has these individuals.

    Code:
              2120001A02 U       Ainu
              2120001A03 U       Ainu
              2120001A04 U       Ainu
              2120001A05 U       Ainu
              2120001A06 U       Ainu
              2120001A08 U       Ainu
              2120001A12 U       Ainu
              2120001B02 U       Ainu
              2120001B03 U       Ainu
              2120001B05 U       Ainu
              2120001B06 U       Ainu
              2120001B08 U       Ainu
              2120001B10 U       Ainu
              2120001B12 U       Ainu
              2120001C01 U       Ainu
              2120001C02 U       Ainu
              2120001C03 U       Ainu
              2120001C04 U       Ainu
              2120001C05 U       Ainu
              2120001C06 U       Ainu
              2120001C08 U       Ainu
              2120002A01 U       Ainu
              2120002A02 U       Ainu
              2120002A03 U       Ainu
              2120002A04 U       Ainu
    https://www.nature.com/articles/s42003-020-01162-2
    Those would be nice to have, but I don't know if they're publicly available. Many times I end up seeing these kinds of samples uploaded into the dreaded European Genome-Phenome Archive black hole, a place where no amateur will ever be permitted to venture.

    If they're from a 2012 study there might not be enough markers for G25 anyway.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michalis Moriopoulos View Post
    Those would be nice to have, but I don't know if they're publicly available. Many times I end up seeing these kinds of samples uploaded into the dreaded European Genome-Phenome Archive black hole, a place where no amateur will ever be permitted to venture.

    If they're from a 2012 study there might not be enough markers for G25 anyway.
    A public google drive on the data is available and listed in the study.
    https://drive.google.com/drive/folde...Hw?usp=sharing

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