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Thread: Kshatriya / Rajput / Thakur thread

  1. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kapisa View Post
    Please read my earlier post. Hindu Shahis are not the same as Loharas even though they intermarried which was common back then. Hindu Shahis (ruling family) were probably Dardic or native people of that region pre-pashtunization. It's hard to say since their territory is vast and later expansions North into Swat, and East into Punjab was probably through alliances or suzerain status.They were pretty much under the sway of Brahmanic revival (Alberuni uses Brahman to distinguish from preceding Turk Shahi dynasty which was Buddhist IMO) in the region stated in Hephthalite era since we see some of the best "Gandhara-Nagara+Kashmiri style" of temple architecture from their time. Malot temple has unique Gandharan motifs on one hand and Kashmirian motifs like those in Naranag temple. Only excavations at Hund (Udabhandapura) and Nandana would tell since these were their capitals. Previously quoted paper deals with Hindu Shahi era defensive architecture of Swat Valley contemporaneous to Ghaznavid era rule in the Peshwar valley proper. It concluded that a branch of the royal family or the local suzerain kept defense in the region until the fall of Raja Gira fort.
    https://www.semanticscholar.org/pape...9#paper-header
    Loharas might be linked to other 'Khasa' clans of the region from western lower Himalayas/Shaiwaliks to the East.

    Watch a brief bit about Raja Bir Deva starting around 00:48.
    There is little known about Raja Bir Deva, the chief of the Tanawal tribe, but the tribe participated in the battle of Peshawar against Sultan Mahmud of Ghazna. And after the battle he and his forces moved eastwards, crossing the Indus after the Mahaban in Swabi and settled in the Hazara country. They converted to Islam after about three or four centuries.

    The older people you speak of, must have been these, who lived in Swat, Dir and to the South in the Hazara region, whose Pashtunisation would have started a few centuries after their conversion. Jahandad's video provides a clue to that mystery. The problem, as he makes clear early on, is that there is no documented history available of the period prior to the middle of the 15th century.

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  3. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rahuls77 View Post

    Watch a brief bit about Raja Bir Deva starting around 00:48.
    There is little known about Raja Bir Deva, the chief of the Tanawal tribe, but the tribe participated in the battle of Peshawar against Sultan Mahmud of Ghazna. And after the battle he and his forces moved eastwards, crossing the Indus after the Mahaban in Swabi and settled in the Hazara country. They converted to Islam after about three or four centuries.

    The older people you speak of, must have been these, who lived in Swat, Dir and to the South in the Hazara region, whose Pashtunisation would have started a few centuries after their conversion. Jahandad's video provides a clue to that mystery. The problem, as he makes clear early on, is that there is no documented history available of the period prior to the middle of the 15th century.
    We do have documented history of the region from numerous Buddhist pilgrims from roughly 7-13th century. One of the last ones visits around Khilji period Orgyan pa from Spiti Lahul area of upper Himanchal.
    https://www.tsemrinpoche.com/downloa...t%20Valley.pdf

    His arrives in Uddiayana Swat after passing through Nagarkot (Kangra), Malot in Salt Range, Nila on Swan River and before reaching Indus River and from their towards Swat.
    It mentions that in spite of Muslim rule, Hindu principalities of sorts under suzerainty exist in Kangra, Malot, Pindi Gheb/Chakwal region, upper Peshawar valley and Swat Valley. This is also corroborated with Muslim coins of Ghaznavid time albeit with previously Hindu Shahi motifs still keep on being circulated at Kashmir Smast site.
    https://brill.com/view/journals/jesh...cle-p618_5.xml
    I wrote about this in the Historic to Medieval Archeology of Gandhara thread: 2 Barikot H samples are dated to Medieval time and are not muslim burials, they are locals.

    Bhir deva legend to me seems similar to the legends of other local clans who consistently trace their roots to Hindu tribes of the region. Hindu legends like these of long lost past according to locals seems similar to the origins of Sharda and Narda in Neelum Valley, even though we know archeologically that story is not true. Though these legends do have some semblance of truth: as mentioned above some Hindu principalities remained under Muslim rule until very late. One key here is the word is not Bhir or Veer as in Brave (as in Janjuas) but rather Beerh which to me seems to be coming from a different etymology, but deva itself means a pre islamic Hindu connection.
    One thing interesting he mentioned was that the later established Tanawal tribe had connections with the Turks of Pakhli. Which could explain the two predominant Y haplogroups among them R1b and R1a. Though R1b doesn't have to be Turkic rather a local variant present in part of the population (ruling family). However, I am more interested in their R1a which has not been fully resolved, if its the predominantly Indo-Aryan R1a, than we would have to accept a local pre islamic Buddhist/Hindu like origins of Tanawals who possibly later absorbed genetic flow from Afghanistan (ruling family).
    Last edited by Kapisa; 07-19-2021 at 03:03 PM.
     

    distance: 2.13
    sample: Kapisa (Kapisa)
    CG IVCp IRN Shahr I Sokhta BA2 I8728: 42.5
    Dzharkutan1 BA Average: 37.5
    Srubnaya Alakul MLBA Average: 17
    Chokhopani 2700BP Average: 3

    sample: Kapisa:Kapisa-Dad
    distance: 2.0944
    Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2 I8728: 41.5
    Bustan_BA Average: 37
    Srubnaya_Alakul_MLBA Average: 19
    Chokhopani_2700BP Average: 2.5

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  5. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by kaazi View Post
    More

    Punjabi Khatris appears as a Kshatriya caste who took to trade.
    Punjabi Khatri (Bedi):

    Population Percent
    1 Baloch 38.57
    2 S-Indian 29.37
    3 Caucasian 15.07
    4 NE-Euro 11.61
    5 Siberian 2.12
    6 SW-Asian 1.63
    7 American 1.09
    8 Beringian 0.4
    9 SE-Asian 0.14

    Malhotra
    Code:
    Admix Results (sorted):

    # Population Percent
    1 Baloch 38.4
    2 S-Indian 29.55
    3 Caucasian 16.65
    4 NE-Euro 10.08
    5 SW-Asian 1.39
    6 American 0.93
    7 Siberian 0.76
    8 NE-Asian 0.67
    9 Beringian 0.63
    10 Mediterranean 0.54
    11 Papuan 0.35
    12 SE-Asian 0.03
    13 San 0.02

    Kapoor
    Code:
    Admix Results (sorted):

    # Population Percent
    1 Baloch 38.89
    2 S-Indian 30.08
    3 Caucasian 15.35
    4 NE-Euro 10.96
    5 Beringian 1.14
    6 Siberian 1.06
    7 American 0.97
    8 SW-Asian 0.89
    9 Papuan 0.57
    10 NE-Asian 0.07

    Thapar
    Code:
    Admix Results (sorted):

    # Population Percent
    1 Baloch 37.88
    2 S-Indian 28.57
    3 Caucasian 15.73
    4 NE-Euro 10.49
    5 SW-Asian 1.9
    6 NE-Asian 1.78
    7 Mediterranean 1.44
    8 American 1.23
    9 Siberian 0.97

    Chhabra
    Code:
    Admix Results (sorted):

    # Population Percent
    1 Baloch 38.71
    2 S-Indian 27.28
    3 Caucasian 17.44
    4 NE-Euro 9.11
    5 SW-Asian 2.28
    6 Siberian 1.94
    7 SE-Asian 1.14
    8 Papuan 0.67
    9 Beringian 0.57
    10 Mediterranean 0.41
    11 American 0.27
    12 San 0.18

    Punjabi Khatri (Sarin), again quite high Caucasian!

    Admix Results (sorted):

    # Population Percent
    1 Baloch 36.67
    2 S-Indian 29.2
    3 Caucasian 19.53
    4 NE-Euro 11.65
    5 American 1.42
    6 Siberian 0.87
    7 Beringian 0.48
    8 SW-Asian 0.13
    9 SE-Asian 0.07


    HRP0244 West Bengal Rajput
    S Indian Baloch Caucasian NE Euro SE Asian Siberian NE Asian Papuan American Beringian Mediterranean SW Asian San E African Pygmy W African
    47% 30% 3% 6% 2% 2% 2% 1% 2% 2% 2% 2% 0% 0% 0% 0%


    Nepali Newar Kshatriyas
    Chhathariya Shrestha Newar - Mulepati noble/royal Newar subcaste.
    Admix Results (sorted):

    # Population Percent
    1 NE-Asian 39.33
    2 S-Indian 28.69
    3 Baloch 16.67
    4 Siberian 5.85
    5 NE-Euro 2.75
    6 SE-Asian 2.67
    7 Mediterranean 1.99
    8 Caucasian 0.8
    9 American 0.7
    10 Papuan 0.55

    related to above Chhathariya Newar Shrestha.
    Admix Results (sorted):

    # Population Percent
    1 NE-Asian 38.17
    2 S-Indian 28.83
    3 Baloch 17.97
    4 Siberian 4.89
    5 NE-Euro 2.18
    6 SE-Asian 2.02
    7 Caucasian 1.89
    8 Mediterranean 1.68
    9 American 1.39
    10 Papuan 0.98


    Edit: These sources wrote an interesting alternate spellings of Punjabi Khatris (Sereen, Banjai, Sodhi) as "Kshettris" or "Kshettri caste" which I think is to mean "Kshatriya" like in Nepali usage.

    https://books.google.com.np/books?id...6AEwAXoECAQQAg
    https://books.google.com.np/books?id...6AEwAHoECAUQAg
    https://books.google.com.np/books?id...6AEwAHoECAUQAg
    I think that must be because book writer considers word "Khatri" (only a Punjabi language word afaik) to be related to word "Kshettri" or "Kshatriya".
    Writer is from UP where they use word "Kshatriya" or "Kshettri", but not "Khatri".
    Last edited by laltota; 07-28-2021 at 08:34 AM.

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  7. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by laltota View Post
    I think that must be because book writer considers word "Khatri" (only a Punjabi language word afaik) to be related to word "Kshettri" or "Kshatriya".
    Writer is from UP where they use word "Kshatriya" or "Kshettri", but not "Khatri".
    In the UP area the pronunciation normally is chattri.
    Further east in Bihar it used to be khattia - but all the old khattia clans disappeared - perhaps blending into modern babhans and rajputs.

    In the west too khattia was used at one time.
    See eg. this Padihar inscription:
    "tena Padihara-vanso samunnaim ettha sampatton"
    "vippo Hariando bhajja asi tti khattia Bhadda"
    https://www.ebooksread.com/authors-e...krit-hci.shtml

    The founder of the Pratihar vansh (a Rajput clan), the brahman/vippo Hariando married a kshatriya Bhadda/Bhadra.

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  9. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    In the UP area the pronunciation normally is chattri.
    Further east in Bihar it used to be khattia - but all the old khattia clans disappeared - perhaps blending into modern babhans and rajputs.

    In the west too khattia was used at one time.
    See eg. this Padihar inscription:
    "tena Padihara-vanso samunnaim ettha sampatton"
    "vippo Hariando bhajja asi tti khattia Bhadda"
    https://www.ebooksread.com/authors-e...krit-hci.shtml

    The founder of the Pratihar vansh (a Rajput clan), the brahman/vippo Hariando married a kshatriya Bhadda/Bhadra.
    UP pronunciation is pretty close to us. In Nepali written form, we write Kshettri (क्षेत्री) and Kshatri (क्षत्री) but pronounce as Chhetri and use the same Romanized written form.

    For eg the Army Chief did this. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rajendra_Chhetri

    Quote Originally Posted by laltota View Post
    I think that must be because book writer considers word "Khatri" (only a Punjabi language word afaik) to be related to word "Kshettri" or "Kshatriya".
    Writer is from UP where they use word "Kshatriya" or "Kshettri", but not "Khatri".
    "Khatri" (खत्री) is also used in Nepali language. We don't know when it was used 1st but it was the surname of military officers in the late 18th century CE Gorkha Kingdom. Perhaps, we can dig it back to 16th century CE.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pande_family were noble Khatris. Probably rooted from "Kshatri" (क्षत्रि)> "Khatri"(खत्री) based on this Sanskrit Shloka about above Khatri Pandeys.

    सुक्षत्रि पाण्डवर वंशोराजोमन्त्रि महीन्द्रस्य च वंशराज । बस्न्यायिता नाहरकेहराद्याः सामाजिकाः क्षेगदितशत्रुमाद्याः।।
    Last edited by Kaazi; 07-28-2021 at 05:15 PM.

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  11. #76
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    Khatri are still around in Pakistan, my wifes dadi and some other part of her family are Khathri. Apparently the village next door is all khatri.

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  13. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by scorpi786 View Post
    Khatri are still around in Pakistan, my wifes dadi and some other part of her family are Khathri. Apparently the village next door is all khatri.
    There are plenty of Muslim Khatris. Even majority Sikhs in Pakistan are also Khatri and Arora.

    But I don't buy the Khatri = Kshtriya thing. They have historically been traders and merchants. Even Sikh Gurus originally came from merchant background.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MonkeyDLuffy View Post
    There are plenty of Muslim Khatris. Even majority Sikhs in Pakistan are also Khatri and Arora.

    But I don't buy the Khatri = Kshtriya thing. They have historically been traders and merchants. Even Sikh Gurus originally came from merchant background.
    That is the same among the Jains too who have some of the oldest records extant - they were mostly from Kshatri clans, but today their professions are near all mercantile.

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  17. #79
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    Do you have any results of East UP/Awadh area Rajputs? Specifically their Y-DNA or Mtdna as well? I'm interested to see what that looks like because my dad's maternal side are supposed to Rajput Khanzadas from that area.

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    Brahmins had written a treatise that older kshatriya were dead and newer ones were from their ranks ( some kind of split group). Punjabi khatri don't follow this pattern definitely not, for Jain it is a religion (so complex case and outside). Gangetic Kayasth also say that don't fit the pattern. I think only Tyagi, Bhumihar, Rajput etc would fit that. And who was controlling trade of Western belt if Punjabi khatri are kshatriya. I think groups from Pak Punjab roots will all show odd genetics not following any stated rule.
    Last edited by Raj Singh; 09-07-2021 at 10:57 AM. Reason: Addition

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