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Thread: When did Iranian speakers first arrive in modern-day Iran?

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    When did Iranian speakers first arrive in modern-day Iran?

    That’s it, that’s the question. My understanding is that early Iranians left the steppe later than early Indo-Aryans - but how much later?

    Specifically curious about when they would’ve arrived in Media and Persia - that is, Western Iran.
    The clock indicates the moment—but what does eternity indicate?

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    Iran Pahlavi Dynasty Canada AchaemenidEmpire1 Iran Sassanid Empire
    Quote Originally Posted by hartaisarlag View Post
    That’s it, that’s the question. My understanding is that early Iranians left the steppe later than early Indo-Aryans - but how much later?

    Specifically curious about when they would’ve arrived in Media and Persia - that is, Western Iran.
    Parsa was the name of an Indo-European nomadic people who migrated into the region about 1000 BC. The first mention of Parsa occurs in the annals of Shalmanesar II, an Assyrian king, in 844 BC

    At the end of the 2nd millennium BC, the Iranian tribes emerged in the region of northwest Iran. These tribes expanded their control over larger areas. Subsequently, the boundaries of Media changed over a period of several hundred years.[33] Iranian tribes were present in western and northwestern Iran from at least the 12th or 11th centuries BC. But the significance of Iranian elements in these regions were established from the beginning of the second half of the 8th century BC.[34] By this time the Iranian tribes were the majority in what later become the territory of the Median Kingdom and also the west of Media proper.[34] A study of textual sources from the region shows that in the Neo-Assyrian period, the regions of Media, and further to the west and the northwest, had a population with Iranian speaking people as the majority.[35]
    The Persian empire was founded shortly after at around 530 BC with the unification of Medians and the Persians under Cyrus.
    Last edited by Xeon; 07-07-2021 at 11:07 PM.
     

    Target: Xeon_scaled
    Distance: 2.7735% / 0.02773461

    33.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
    20.6 Levant_PPNC
    18.4 TUR_Barcin_N
    14.4 GEO_CHG
    13.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
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    Target: Xeon_scaled
    Distance: 2.3614% / 0.02361351
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    According to the hybrid theory developed at Jena, Indo-European languages originated in present-day Iran.
    A Short History of Humanity: How Migration Made Us Who We Are
    Johannes Krause, Thomas Trappe

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    Quote Originally Posted by RCO View Post
    A Short History of Humanity: How Migration Made Us Who We Are
    Johannes Krause, Thomas Trappe

    https://books.google.com.br/books?id...6AEwAHoECAIQAw
    No.

    Also not the subject of my question.
    The clock indicates the moment—but what does eternity indicate?

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    Iron Age would be my guess. The Iron Age is when steppe admixture seems to permeate West Asia heavily however we don't know whether the Hajji Firuz_BA sample represents Iranian/Indo-European admixture or something else. If it does, then it would mean it came there during the Bronze Age.
    Last edited by Cynic; 07-08-2021 at 04:31 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cynic View Post
    Iron Age would be my guess. The Iron Age is when steppe admixture seems to permeate West Asia heavily however we don't know whether the Hajji Firuz_BA sample represents Iranian/Indo-European admixture or something else. If it does, then it would mean it came there during the Bronze Age.
    Hajji Firuz BA is not Indo-Iranian for sure so even if IE not relevant here. Iranics were not the first Indo-Iranians in the region and you had already around 500-700 years of Indo-Aryan presence before the arrival of Iranics around 1000 B.C in Iran. But it seems only with Iranic settlers and in many regions only much later the majority of the population became IE-speaking before it probably were only some pockets in a region mostly populated by non-IE speaking populations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xeon View Post
    The Persian empire was founded shortly after at around 530 BC with the unification of Medians and the Persians under Cyrus.
    Parsu (Parśu) - The Parsus have been connected with the Persians[5] This is based on the evidence of an Assyrian inscription from 844 BC referring to the Persians as Parshu, and the Behistun Inscription of Darius I of Persia referring to Parsa as the home of the Persians.[28]
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...#List_of_clans

    Parśu were one of clans mentioned in Rig Veda, who were also present in Battle of Ten Kings against Indo Aryans, If they were fighting against Aryan during their journey to South Asia, how they would be later to this region than Aryans?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Ten_Kings

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    Quote Originally Posted by discreetmaverick View Post
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...#List_of_clans

    Parśu were one of clans mentioned in Rig Veda, who were also present in Battle of Ten Kings against Indo Aryans, If they were fighting against Aryan during their journey to South Asia, how they would be later to this region than Aryans?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Ten_Kings
    Parsu is a Proto-Indo-Iranian term and unlikely meant here Persians of West Iran. Maybe maybe it meant some East Iranics (Proto-Pashtuns?) because the ethnonym Pashtun is also derived from Parsa but it is also quite possible that this was just another Indo-Aryan tribe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmountains View Post
    Parsu is a Proto-Indo-Iranian term and unlikely meant here Persians of West Iran. Maybe maybe it meant some East Iranics (Proto-Pashtuns?) because the ethnonym Pashtun is also derived from Parsa but it is also quite possible that this was just another Indo-Aryan tribe.
    Pakthas are referred Pashtun

    "Pakthas are an ancient people that find reference in Sanskrit and likely in Greek sources as a people living in the region which includes south-eastern province (Loya Paktia) in Afghanistan and northern parts of Pakistan."

    "The Pakthas, Bhalanases, Vishanins, Alinas, and Sivas were the five frontier tribes. The Pakthas lived in the hills from which the Kruma originates. Zimmer locates them in present-day eastern Afghanistan, identifying them with the modern Pakthun."[3]
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakthas

    Yes, Parsu can be Proto- Indo Iranian, Aryans were calling tribes by their name


    "English: Persian, Modern Persian: Parsi, Old Persian: Parsa, Greek: Perse, Old Iranian: Parsava, Assyrian / Akkadian: Parsuash or Parsumash.

    English: Persia, Modern Persian: Pars, Old Persian: Parsa, Greek: Persica & Persis, Assyrian / Akkadian: Parsua. "

    http://www.heritageinstitute.com/zor...nian/index.htm

    then, Vedic : Parśu

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    Quote Originally Posted by discreetmaverick View Post
    Pakthas are referred Pashtun



    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakthas

    Yes, Parsu can be Proto- Indo Iranian, Aryans were calling tribes by their name


    "English: Persian, Modern Persian: Parsi, Old Persian: Parsa, Greek: Perse, Old Iranian: Parsava, Assyrian / Akkadian: Parsuash or Parsumash.

    English: Persia, Modern Persian: Pars, Old Persian: Parsa, Greek: Persica & Persis, Assyrian / Akkadian: Parsua. "

    http://www.heritageinstitute.com/zor...nian/index.htm

    then, Vedic : Parśu
    No it is unrelated to Pakhta

    (2) Although the name Afghan has been recorded much earlier than Paṣ̌tō, the latter is undoubtedly the original, native name. The earlier, common derivation from Herodotus’ tribal name Páktues is phonetically untenable. Neither Greek u nor kt could possibly render the sounds of the Iranic name of the 5th century B.C. The ū of Paҳt’ūn (masc. plur. Paxtān’ə) “a member of the Paštūn nation” would at that time have been -a(n)- and xt probably something like *rs(t). The modern “hard” pronunciation of ҳt as xt is restricted to the northeastern dialects and evidently of recent origin, as shown inter alia by the orthography. Indo-Aryan Paṭhān must have been adopted from Paṣ̌tō *Paṣ̌tan-.

    (3) The most plausible derivation of Paҳt’o, as already suggested by Markwart (Untersuchungen zur Geschichte von Eran, Göttingen and Leipzig, 1896-1905, II, p. 177; cf. Morg[enstierne]4, par. 40b), is from *Parsuwā, and of Paҳt’ūn from *Parswāna-, with the basic stem *Parsū-; cf. Skt. (Pāṇini) Parśu- “a (northwestern) warrior tribe.” Tedesco, in a letter, compares Pārsa- (from a vṛddhi from *Pārswa-). We know how certain tribal names can spread over widely separated regions; cf., e.g., Veneti and Saxons (Morg.4,5).

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