North Italian genetic structure

[Simon_W]

There is the common, widespread misconception that all North Italians are more "northern" than central Italians, and that they all have Germanic admixture from the Longobards. For instance, 23andme writes in their article on Italians:

"In the early Middle Ages, Germanic invaders brought about the fall of the Western Roman Empire, and a northern European genetic signature persists in modern Italians to this day. This influence is strongest in the north, while southern Italians share a rich genetic heritage with island Greeks."

Now check out this map showing the incidence of blond hair colour in Italy around 1860:

800px-BiasuttiMappa.jpg

The map is based on data gathered by Ridolfo Livi on army conscripts from 1859-1863. Hence it shows Italian structure at a time when it was perhaps at its peak; for sure it was more structured than it is at present, after the migration of many South Italians to the north, in search of jobs, and since then Italians have also become more mobile within the regions.

We can see that the majority of the lowland parts of the Emilia-Romagna are as dark as the southern half of central Italy. There are two spots, one around Forli, the other around Mirandola, that are even as dark as Calabria, or Southern Apulia.

In this version of the same map, the exact locations of the spots can be better discerned by help of the rivers:

hrtsh.jpg

But it would be foolish to think that these places are genetically similar to Central or South Italians.

The little that has been published on autosomal DNA from the Emilia shows that at least the Emilia is clearly part of the North Italian cluster. From the Romagna I don't know any published autosomal samples. From what I gathered from PCAs from hobbyists and from analyses from DNA kits, at least part of the Romagna resembles central Italy. But probably not all of it, as my maternal grandfather's roots were from Cesena, and the signal that I inherited is North Italian-like.

The thing is, the main structure of Italy, as I understand it, isn't the result of more or less northern/central European/IE steppe ancestry; instead, it's the result of more or less Bronze Age Anatolian ancestry, which peaks in the South and is weakest in the north.

Understandably, I find the dark spot around Forli particularly interesting, because Cesena is just nearby.

Benito Mussolini's mother was from Forli:

https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:R..._mussolini.jpg

While his father was from nearby Predappio:

https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:A..._mussolini.jpg

They both look pretty exotic from a central European perspective, and pretty "typically" Italian.

As did the "duce" himself:

https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:B...gshot_1903.jpg

https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:B...ni_colored.jpg

Also from Forli, the singer Alice:

https://youtu.be/czA66jXjEVE

Now don't tell me that these are Celts, or even Longobards, lol.

So how can we explain this? At the dawn of history there were the Umbri and the Etruscans in the Romagna, followed by the Gaulish invasion. Taking into account how light haired the modern Tuscans and Umbrians are, and bearing in mind that, even if the Umbri and Etruscans didn't all flee from the Gauls, but mixed with them, the Gaulish admixture must have increased the incidence of light hair even further. The modern inhabitants of Forli therefore cannot be predominantly descended from these. I believe they are predominantly descended from settlers who arrived with the Romans. That is, ancient Italic central and South Italians. Because these still had little or no Bronze Age Anatolian / Greek admixture, modern people from Forli and the wider (lowland) Emilia-Romagna are nonetheless North Italian-like, not Central or Southern.

[Nino90]

The Germanic Admixture in most of North Italy is maximum 15%.

If you check some of the north Italian samples on G25 and do a run with relevant ancient samples. You will soon find that they have majority Italic Admixture with low Anatolian/Levant and some Germanic/Possible Celtic.

I got central Italian admixture and score very little if any ancient Greek/Levant/Anatolian.

known Italian ancestry - 25-37.5% Tuscan;

Target: Nino_scaled
Distance: 2.8731% / 0.02873087
60.4 Medieval-German
28.0 Early-Latin
11.6 Iron-Age-Saami

Here are some North and Central Italian averages:

Target: Italian_Lombardy
Distance: 0.9070% / 0.00907037 | ADC: 0.25x RC
58.0 Early-Latin
28.2 Etruscan
13.8 Imperial-Roman

Maybe I would add a Slavic reference sample for the Veneto. Because 29% Germanic is unrealistic.

Target: Italian_Veneto
Distance: 0.9661% / 0.00966107 | ADC: 0.25x RC
43.6 Early-Latin
29.4 Medieval-German
26.0 Imperial-Roman
1.0 Etruscan

Target: Italian_Tuscany
Distance: 0.6935% / 0.00693546 | ADC: 0.25x RC
42.6 Imperial-Roman
23.8 Early-Latin
18.0 Medieval-German
15.6 Etruscan

Target: Italian_Bergamo
Distance: 1.0927% / 0.01092690 | ADC: 0.25x RC
38.8 Etruscan
32.8 Early-Latin
15.6 Imperial-Roman
12.8 Medieval-German

The problem is that we lack North Italian antique samples. Both Cisapline Gauls and Iron age Italic tribes.

Once we get those samples, The Germanic will decrease much.

Early-Latin:ITA_Rome_Latini_IA,0.127482,0.147252,0.033187,-0.016796,0.044008,-0.008646,-0.00376,-0.004846,0.026588,0.052666,-0.002761,0.015137,-0.036719,-0.008533,-0.009093,0.013392,0.016037,-0.004687,0.003897,0.004127,0.00262,-0.00272,0.001972,-0.007712,-0.008742
Early-Latin:ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA,0.133173,0.156392,0.0445,-0.00969,0.044008,-0.004462,0.00846,0.003,0.024543,0.044101,-0.002598,0.012289,-0.022448,-0.009634,-0.005429,-0.005834,0.00352,0.003167,0.006034,-0.007379,-0.008859,0.005317,-0.000863,-0.006989,-0.001796
Early-Latin:ITA_Prenestini_tribe_IA,0.12862,0.145221,0.04714,0.005491,0.046162,0.00251,-0.00282,0.002769,0.021475,0.039727,-0.002923,0.012289,-0.021407,-0.016239,0.012622,0.000398,-0.003129,0.003421,0.00176,-0.001251,0.004492,0.003586,-0.00456,-0.003976,0.000239
Early-Latin:ITA_Proto-Villanovan,0.125205,0.138112,0.030547,-0.010982,0.023081,-0.011713,0.002115,-0.001846,0.006954,0.021139,0.008119,0.005845,-0.011596,-0.000826,-0.007465,-0.01432,-0.011604,0.005194,0.002765,-0.00988,-0.009733,0.001607,-0.002465,0.003976,-0.005508
Early-Latin:ITA_Villanovan,0.12862,0.156392,0.042238,-0.024225,0.052933,-0.008367,-0.001645,-0.005307,0.023725,0.040274,0.006008,0.006894,-0.018285,-0.019405,-0.003529,0.008751,0.025686,0.002914,0.004651,0.004252,0.00574,0.006059,-0.006286,-0.010604,-0.002515

Imperial-Roman:ITA_Rome_Imperial,0.1039821,0.1495156,-0.0235307,-0.0574065,0.0045265,-0.0204055,-0.0011946,-0.0051488,0.0006604,0.0196549,0.0034575,0.0025539,-0.0040602,-0.0014737,-0.0081715,-0.0014474,0.0035992,0.000454,0.0012178,-0.0032854,-0.0025579,0.0020454,-0.0006985,-0.0004845,0.0004141
Etruscan:ITA_Etruscan,0.126913,0.153853,0.034695,-0.014212,0.0417,-0.005299,0.0024675,-0.002769,0.019839,0.0343515,-0.0023545,0.014237,-0.014792,-0.004335,-0.00475,-0.007823,-0.0028035,0.0052575,0.011564,-0.001188,-0.002558,0.003771,-6.15e-05,-0.0004215,-0.002694
Medieval-German:DEU_MA,0.1223596,0.1303939,0.061169,0.048773,0.039792,0.0199408,0.010975,0.0052151,0.0013295,-0.0024966,-0.003735,0.001109,-0.0091576,-0.0038398,0.0161643,-0.0008352,-0.0133511,0.0032684,0.0041354,0.0040271,0.0060019,0.0037342,-0.0007273,0.011146,-0.0004429

[mokordo]

Early-Latin:ITA_Rome_Latini_IA,0.127482,0.147252,0.033187,-0.016796,0.044008,-0.008646,-0.00376,-0.004846,0.026588,0.052666,-0.002761,0.015137,-0.036719,-0.008533,-0.009093,0.013392,0.016037,-0.004687,0.003897,0.004127,0.00262,-0.00272,0.001972,-0.007712,-0.008742
Early-Latin:ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA,0.133173,0.156392,0.0445,-0.00969,0.044008,-0.004462,0.00846,0.003,0.024543,0.044101,-0.002598,0.012289,-0.022448,-0.009634,-0.005429,-0.005834,0.00352,0.003167,0.006034,-0.007379,-0.008859,0.005317,-0.000863,-0.006989,-0.001796
Early-Latin:ITA_Prenestini_tribe_IA,0.12862,0.145221,0.04714,0.005491,0.046162,0.00251,-0.00282,0.002769,0.021475,0.039727,-0.002923,0.012289,-0.021407,-0.016239,0.012622,0.000398,-0.003129,0.003421,0.00176,-0.001251,0.004492,0.003586,-0.00456,-0.003976,0.000239
Early-Latin:ITA_Proto-Villanovan,0.125205,0.138112,0.030547,-0.010982,0.023081,-0.011713,0.002115,-0.001846,0.006954,0.021139,0.008119,0.005845,-0.011596,-0.000826,-0.007465,-0.01432,-0.011604,0.005194,0.002765,-0.00988,-0.009733,0.001607,-0.002465,0.003976,-0.005508
Early-Latin:ITA_Villanovan,0.12862,0.156392,0.042238,-0.024225,0.052933,-0.008367,-0.001645,-0.005307,0.023725,0.040274,0.006008,0.006894,-0.018285,-0.019405,-0.003529,0.008751,0.025686,0.002914,0.004651,0.004252,0.00574,0.006059,-0.006286,-0.010604,-0.002515

Imperial-Roman:ITA_Rome_Imperial,0.1039821,0.1495156,-0.0235307,-0.0574065,0.0045265,-0.0204055,-0.0011946,-0.0051488,0.0006604,0.0196549,0.0034575,0.0025539,-0.0040602,-0.0014737,-0.0081715,-0.0014474,0.0035992,0.000454,0.0012178,-0.0032854,-0.0025579,0.0020454,-0.0006985,-0.0004845,0.0004141
Etruscan:ITA_Etruscan,0.126913,0.153853,0.034695,-0.014212,0.0417,-0.005299,0.0024675,-0.002769,0.019839,0.0343515,-0.0023545,0.014237,-0.014792,-0.004335,-0.00475,-0.007823,-0.0028035,0.0052575,0.011564,-0.001188,-0.002558,0.003771,-6.15e-05,-0.0004215,-0.002694
Medieval-German:DEU_MA,0.1223596,0.1303939,0.061169,0.048773,0.039792,0.0199408,0.010975,0.0052151,0.0013295,-0.0024966,-0.003735,0.001109,-0.0091576,-0.0038398,0.0161643,-0.0008352,-0.0133511,0.0032684,0.0041354,0.0040271,0.0060019,0.0037342,-0.0007273,0.011146,-0.0004429

Neither of my parents, and therefore neither do I, have any Italian ancestors.

Target: gixajo_scaled
Distance: 2.1543% / 0.02154306
84.2 Early-Latin
9.0 Medieval-German
6.8 Imperial-Roman

Target: gixajo_dad_scaled
Distance: 2.6721% / 0.02672113
83.0 Early-Latin
14.6 Imperial-Roman
2.4 Etruscan

Target: gixajo_mom_scaled
Distance: 2.4229% / 0.02422862
87.0 Early-Latin
13.0 Medieval-German

[Luso]

They both look pretty exotic from a central European perspective, and pretty "typically" Italian.

I wouldn't get too much into that "phenotype" discussion pointing out northern Italians looking Italian vs central European bc it seems very subjective and unscientific. We didn't know what these people looked like 100% certain all we have is some snps to estimate relatively speaking. But it is true some provinces in the north are more typical genetically like their italian central parts... but the very northern parts bordering the Swiss do get an elevated Germanic admixture which isn't very surprising.

Neither of my parents, and therefore neither do I, have any Italian ancestors.

Target: gixajo_scaled
Distance: 2.1543% / 0.02154306
84.2 Early-Latin
9.0 Medieval-German
6.8 Imperial-Roman

Target: gixajo_dad_scaled
Distance: 2.6721% / 0.02672113
83.0 Early-Latin
14.6 Imperial-Roman
2.4 Etruscan

Target: gixajo_mom_scaled
Distance: 2.4229% / 0.02422862
87.0 Early-Latin
13.0 Medieval-German

oh wow your distance is very close... it must be an overlapping issue bc those "early-latin" samples + etruscan are pretty similar to (eastern) iberian samples.

compared to me:
Target: Luso_scaled
Distance: 4.1172% / 0.04117242
78.0 Early-Latin
13.0 Imperial-Roman
9.0 Medieval-German

-- these northern samples are very spanish-like:
Villanova:

Distance to: ITA_Villanovan
0.03302067 Spanish_La_Rioja
0.04462545 Spanish_Castello
0.04551165 French_Corsica
0.04682108 Spanish_Catalunya_Central
0.04744870 Spanish_Baleares
0.04778522 Spanish_Peri-Barcelona
0.04804861 Spanish_Murcia



this as well:

Distance to: ITA_Prenestini_tribe_IA
0.01431569 French_South
0.01729684 Spanish_Aragon
0.01775701 Spanish_Pirineu
0.01786436 Spanish_Lleida
0.01813429 Spanish_Castello


Distance to: ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA
0.03414474 Spanish_Terres_de_l'Ebre
0.03481290 Spanish_Menorca
0.03505798 Spanish_Pirineu
0.03525011 Spanish_Baleares
0.03555346 Spanish_Peri-Barcelona
0.03584994 Spanish_Catalunya_Central
0.03586453 Italian_Bergamo
0.03666856 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige

[Rwilson98]

Ke5tEGd.jpg

Here is a cool map I found a while ago(Cant remember where from)

The names attached to the labels are from academic journals/reports which go into further detail about different roman migrations. Obviously as seen in the Roman Crossroads study there were genetic shifts after this period but it does give you a much clearer image of roman Italy(from an ethnic standpoint).

[ChrisR]

Here is a cool map I found a while ago(Cant remember where from)

Indeed an interesting concept to look at the post Roman conquest shifts in ethnic composition trough veteran settlement. I would be very interested to find the original source which so far I was not able to locate despite the indication at the bottom right in addition to the title of the figure. I'm interested mostly in the Raetic, Venetic and Gallic areas. At least for Raetic I would expect some veteran settlement in the Athesis (Adige/Etsch) valley and even Isarcus (Isarco/Eisack) and Puster valley. But it all depends on the used sources (written/archeological) and the numbers in comparison.

[cheshire]

Discussing North Italian genetic structure based on phenotype/lightness of features doesnt seem very helpful, you know.

A model I've seen some people using for N. Italians is the Imperial_Roman + CHE_IA + Germanic_IA triad.
I did a few changes to it but I'm not sure if it's good:



Something wild is happening there with the Italian_Liguria sample I had to add the Guanche average only for the Ligurian one.
Is the TUR_MLBA avg. a good proxy for bronze age anatolian input?
If anyone has an average for Emilia-Romagna or Piedmont I'd be quite grateful if you could share them!

[ChrisR]

Now check out this map showing the incidence of blond hair colour in Italy around 1860:
800px-BiasuttiMappa.jpg
The map is based on data gathered by Ridolfo Livi on army conscripts from 1859-1863.

I would be interested how Livi gathered and harmonized the data from the then different administrations unless French standardization was so dominant to facilitate this. See a map of the situation right before the conscripts time in 1843:


Regarding the hair phenotype and with all the limited connection to the overall genetic admixture from the map I observe and would assume the North-Western part is strongly influenced by Celtic dominance (not sure how much blonde hair was present in the Alpine Gauls) as well as Germanic (Allemanic) incursions and later settlement (see Walser in Aosta XII-XIII century). In the historic Southern Tyrol area (now Trentino-Südtirol/Alto Adige) from what I see so far is strongly from Germanic settlements in the Middle Ages (from Bavaric, Frankish and Allemanic territory). The map lets suspect the same pattern also for the Cimbri/Zimbar area (language mainly derived from Medieval South Bavarian) near Vicenza (altopiano dei Sette Comuni / Asiago), near Verona (Tredici Comuni) and the Lusern village in Trentino (language still in use there). In the North-Eastern part it might be a mix of the Carinthian-Germanic influence as well as Slavic expansions with the latter probably stronger.

[alexfritz]

the recent paper with the bronze age samples also incl. a chart on hair and eye colors for a whole bunch of aDNA samples (incl. the RMPR) and contrary to popular believe traits like blond hair (also red) and blue eyes actually existed before the germanic invasions (imperial times) in samples fully comitted to the Med. and East-Med. clusters; and likewise blondism in late antiquity samples like san ercolano which are heavily central/south-italian like; so the whole looks department is not really such an indicator of north and south DNAwise

the italian cline, as shown by the previous paper, is dependent on the gradient of italic_IA ancestry and future papers will show whether it is pre-roman italic or post-roman provincial (the gradient); north italy are *atleast two main clusters nw and ne and the closest clusters to central italians and south balkan (balkan1 = albanians)
from raven et al (HDD 591,217 SNPs) CP/fineSTRUCTURE

 

admixture wise there is no great diff. between north and central italians
its mostly just isolation and drift (see Fst and IBD)

*NITALY2: 2xTSI 28xEMI 20xLIG 15xLOM 29xPIE 1xTRE 1xVDA 5xVEN NITALY3: 1xLIG 22xLOM NITALY4: 2xLIG 5xTRE 11xVEN 14xFRI and the aostans actually branch with the italians (not french) guess that means their haplotype structure is more similar to the former than the latter (but acc. to Fst very drifted)

[hantrolugharsts]

Distance to: hantro_scaled
0.03426806 Early-Latin:ITA_Prenestini_tribe_IA
0.04699128 Etruscan:ITA_Etruscan
0.04828567 Early-Latin:ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA
0.05797365 Early-Latin:ITA_Villanovan
0.05898245 Early-Latin:ITA_Rome_Latini_IA
0.05958917 Early-Latin:ITA_Proto-Villanovan
0.08151249 Medieval-GermanEU_MA
0.10879290 Imperial-Roman:ITA_Rome_Imperial

Distance to: hantro_scaled
0.03128993 88.20% Early-Latin:ITA_Prenestini_tribe_IA + 11.80% Imperial-Roman:ITA_Rome_Imperial
0.03288391 83.80% Early-Latin:ITA_Prenestini_tribe_IA + 16.20% Early-Latin:ITA_Proto-Villanovan
0.03365307 83.60% Early-Latin:ITA_Prenestini_tribe_IA + 16.40% Etruscan:ITA_Etruscan
0.03396108 91.20% Early-Latin:ITA_Prenestini_tribe_IA + 8.80% Early-Latin:ITA_Villanovan
0.03408722 6.80% Early-Latin:ITA_Rome_Latini_IA + 93.20% Early-Latin:ITA_Prenestini_tribe_IA
0.03416057 96.40% Early-Latin:ITA_Prenestini_tribe_IA + 3.60% Medieval-GermanEU_MA
0.03420319 5.80% Early-Latin:ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA + 94.20% Early-Latin:ITA_Prenestini_tribe_IA
0.03886962 61.80% Early-Latin:ITA_Rome_Latini_IA + 38.20% Medieval-GermanEU_MA
0.03946242 62.60% Early-Latin:ITA_Villanovan + 37.40% Medieval-GermanEU_MA
0.03998535 72.40% Early-Latin:ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA + 27.60% Medieval-GermanEU_MA
0.04078780 75.20% Etruscan:ITA_Etruscan + 24.80% Medieval-GermanEU_MA
0.04579071 22.80% Early-Latin:ITA_Villanovan + 77.20% Etruscan:ITA_Etruscan
0.04584330 40.60% Early-Latin:ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA + 59.40% Etruscan:ITA_Etruscan
0.04588751 71.60% Early-Latin:ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA + 28.40% Early-Latin:ITA_Proto-Villanovan
0.04599741 20.60% Early-Latin:ITA_Rome_Latini_IA + 79.40% Etruscan:ITA_Etruscan
0.04622071 48.20% Early-Latin:ITA_Proto-Villanovan + 51.80% Early-Latin:ITA_Villanovan
0.04689671 7.40% Early-Latin:ITA_Proto-Villanovan + 92.60% Etruscan:ITA_Etruscan
0.04724907 90.80% Early-Latin:ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA + 9.20% Imperial-Roman:ITA_Rome_Imperial
0.04735949 78.00% Early-Latin:ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA + 22.00% Early-Latin:ITA_Villanovan
0.04742281 50.80% Early-Latin:ITA_Rome_Latini_IA + 49.20% Early-Latin:ITA_Proto-Villanovan
0.04766163 18.20% Early-Latin:ITA_Rome_Latini_IA + 81.80% Early-Latin:ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA
0.05284433 69.20% Early-Latin:ITA_Proto-Villanovan + 30.80% Medieval-GermanEU_MA
0.05436255 39.20% Imperial-Roman:ITA_Rome_Imperial + 60.80% Medieval-GermanEU_MA
0.05521152 46.00% Early-Latin:ITA_Rome_Latini_IA + 54.00% Early-Latin:ITA_Villanovan
0.05671844 88.60% Early-Latin:ITA_Villanovan + 11.40% Imperial-Roman:ITA_Rome_Imperial