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Thread: How to model present-day Iberians using G25?

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    How to model present-day Iberians using G25?

    How to model present-day Iberians? I tried using the Iron Age samples (Iberians and Celtiberians?) but both Spaniards and Portuguese seem to have a lot of ancestry from various post-IA sources. Is the non-Iron Age Iberian part of their ancestry mostly Celtic?

    Secondly, did most of the North African signal arrive during the Muslim period? Some of the Roman-period Iberian samples have higher levels of North African ancestry than modern Iberians, so at least some of it must be pre-Islamic.
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    You need several Iron Age samples from Iberia. One from each language family would be ideal:



    Then you need a roman sample. A roman from Iberia would be ideal.

    Then you need some germanic samples. Visigoth, Suebi, Vandal and Alan samples would be ideal.

    Then you need a north african source. A moorish sample from Iberia would be ideal.

    Using what is currently avaliable on G25 you have some Iron Age iberian samples from the northeast, some romans (not from Iberia) and some north africans as well (not from the moorish period).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gil Vicente View Post
    Then you need a roman sample. A roman from Iberia would be ideal.
    Do you think the Romans introduced a Rome_Imperial like genetic signal to Iberia? Or was it more similar to Early Italic/Latin samples?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alkaevli View Post
    Do you think the Romans introduced a Rome_Imperial like genetic signal to Iberia? Or was it more similar to Early Italic/Latin samples?
    I'm not sure, which is why we need a sample from that period in Iberia to be more accurate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alkaevli View Post
    How to model present-day Iberians? I tried using the Iron Age samples (Iberians and Celtiberians?) but both Spaniards and Portuguese seem to have a lot of ancestry from various post-IA sources. Is the non-Iron Age Iberian part of their ancestry mostly Celtic?

    Secondly, did most of the North African signal arrive during the Muslim period? Some of the Roman-period Iberian samples have higher levels of North African ancestry than modern Iberians, so at least some of it must be pre-Islamic.
    Probably there are others here that can answer the first question much better than I.

    Regarding the second, NA admixture indeed seems to have been much higher during Roman times but very likely the flow started centuries earlier introduced by Phoenicians and Carthaginians although it indeed reached its peak during Roman times. From that moment on it started a decline. We have discussed this in several threads and I expressed my opinion that the Crisis of the Third Century set an inflection point stopping drastically the movement of goods and people between Roman provinces (and thus the trade routes with Africa) and just a couple of centuries later the fall of the western empire and the arrival of the Germanic people would dilute more the NA admixture.

    The Muslim invasion obviously contributed with more NA signal but the samples taken from Muslim graveyards present the image of a genetically heterogeneous population. This conveys the idea of a society made of chastes where Arabs occupy the pinnacle followed by other middle easterners, Berbers, Muladis (converted natives), Slavic and at the bottom Jews and Christians (actually the most of the population remained Christian by large during the first centuries).

    I don't want to write thousands of lines about Spanish history here and many things happened in 700 years but in short yes, there was some degree of intermixing but we also had a process called "Reconquista" where the Christian kingdoms that had arisen in the north gradually extend themselves towards the south. They assimilated part of the population but they also became vectors that introduced people with very low or inexistent NA admixture into the south. The net result is a decrease of the NA admixture.

    Muslim rule comes to an end when the last Muslim kingdom falls (Granada) in 1492. And the very same year, Colon sets foot in America. Moorish people living in Granada kingdom will be forced to resettle in other areas further away from the southeastern coast while their land is given to settlers from other regions.

    A fraction of the remaining moorish population in Spain will be assimilated but a big group estimated in 300.000 people mostly living in the East of the country (kingdom of Aragon) will be deported during the XVII century.

    At this point in time perhaps we can presume that the highest degree of NA admixture in Spain was concentrated in the southwest (Reino de Sevilla) but both migration to America and a few catastrophic plagues seem to have severely affected the population in this region that was refilled with migrants coming from the north with, once again, lower NA admixture. Sevilla hold the monopoly of American trade and was both a sort of demographic attraction pole and a gateway to America.

    Summarizing to give an answer to your second question: during and after the Muslim rule there were very relevant population changes in Spain.
    Last edited by Shadogowah; 07-16-2021 at 07:42 PM.
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    2nd question:

    While it is easy to assume a lot of North African DNA will be found in present-day Andalusia (especially given its proximity to North Africa), the Reconquista northern migrations into the south seem to have decreased it sizably. While, in Portugal despite having similar migrations of northern people into the south + Germanics, the North African percentage had maintained a much higher concentration than much of Spain. And in fact, if you look at a map of this admixture you'll notice the more west you go the higher the North African will be.

    Figure:

    Speculation:

    Galicia, the most North Western region in all of Spain has similar amounts of North African admixture to the rest of Portugal... even though the Moorish invaders never reached this far. This adds a lot of variables to understanding where the elevated North African admixture comes from. Since I'm no expert, I will only say my opinion - which is that a lot of the Moorish population moved into northwestern areas of the peninsula and intermixed before the majority of North to south migrations even began. It seems the North African populations avoided the east side of the peninsula and lived more at the west end... If that's because there was less of a strict movement to eliminate moors in the west because of deals of converting... I'm not sure, but also there wasn't a Sangre Azul movement in Portugal either. Hypothetically if Portugal did have the Sangre Azul movement, it surely would have brought not only "pure" Iberians but northern foreigner extract as well.

    Also, there is a possibility that ancient North African admixture might have been present in decent amounts throughout the western end of the peninsula, and we know because of higher concentrations of North African, Roman, and Phoenician haplogroups. But then the question comes up of why Andalusia, which is closer to North Africa, still has less NA admixture? Surely it's not from North Africans settling west in ancient times because they enjoyed it more than the rest of the peninsula- in fact, I'm sure the ancient admixture would be pretty uniform throughout the southern areas. So, the more modern admixture we see today cannot just be due to ancient North African. That is unless, in theory, long ago a huge wave of Northern Africans settled pretty much exclusively in the western side of the peninsula in mountains and heavily intermixed with the native populations. Then we can also add Roman conquests to this equation which could have brought some NA admixture to Portugal and Galicia... although that admixture would be probably equally affecting the entire peninsula below the Basques.

    Conclusion:

    At this point, it's too early to assume that the north African admixture is mostly medieval, or not, bc we need more data to accurately quantify the specific levels of ancient admixture in the Iberian genome. I will say though that there has always been an ancient North African connection to (at least the south) of Spain and Portugal responsible, but clearly, the more modern elevated admixture showing up (mostly in the west) presents very high importance to Moorish medieval conquest.

    It also makes me wonder if the eastern end of the peninsula's had a higher emphasis on their north to south repopulations. I mean this in terms of Spanish going so far as to bring in French and other northern foreigners in order to effectively decrease the native Spanish's North African admixture. Many of these questions will hopefully be answered as more studies are brought to the public's eye.
    Last edited by Luso; 07-17-2021 at 03:19 AM.
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    All is already said.

    The general rule would be: Iberian reference / references of that time + contributions later in that time.

    As the main inputs suposedly came since the muslim invasion we are usually modelled taking the Iron Age as time of reference.

    We need at least 3 references representing the 3 main groups of "IA Iberians" (NW Iberians-"Iberian Celts"/Center Iberians-"Celtiberian"/East and South Iberians-"Iberians")+ all the groups of populations that could be contributing genetic components after that time.

    The North African references many times masks other contributions (Levant / Middle East / Arab / SSA), and even some NA references have a good Iberian contribution (and /or South European), so the ideal would be to have a Berber reference as pure as possible.

    Something similar happens with the Central and North European references, it is often difficult to discriminate Germanic / Scandinavian / British Isles contributions. The Celtic contribution itself present in the Iberian people interferes with those components too.

    For modern Iberians or modern calculator/models is enough Spanish and Portuguese modern regional references / references of that time + more usual foreign inputs.

    We have done all this many times with many models, so more or less we have a clear idea of ​​how we are. As the list of references is expanded with new samples, you can change something, but not in a substantial way.(I guess but I could be wrong).

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    Oh yes, and about many non-European inputs present in modern Iberians, many of them were present already in ancient times.

    There is a recurring debate on how to separate or discriminate the ancient contribution of the NA or the Levantine / Eastern Mediterranean or the more modern contribution that came with the Muslim rule of a large part of the Iberian peninsula.

    I think the most logical thing is that most of it came from 711 AD, but we know that especially the NA component was present in the ancient Iberians too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mokordo View Post
    Oh yes, and about many non-European inputs present in modern Iberians, many of them were present already in ancient times.

    There is a recurring debate on how to separate or discriminate the ancient contribution of the NA or the Levantine / Eastern Mediterranean or the more modern contribution that came with the Muslim rule of a large part of the Iberian peninsula.

    I think the most logical thing is that most of it came from 711 AD, but we know that especially the NA component was present in the ancient Iberians too.
    I’m agree with you, the main apportation that can remains in our genetic must be of medieval origin. Of course, there is also ancient NA markers present in our genome, we have prooved it with many models.
    23andMe: 99.4% Spanish & Portuguese, 0.3% Ashkenazi Jewish, 0.3% Trace Ancestry (0.3% Nigerian)

    My Heritage: 91.5% Iberian, 3.6% Ashkenazi Jewish, 2.7% Middle East, 2.2% Irish, Sccotish and Welsh

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    I've recently tried a new calculator on Vahaduo G25, (Onur) Ultimate World Deep Ancestry Calculator, which gives modern Iberians some ~4-5% "Morocco_Early_Neolithic_Farmer_MAR_EN", that's the name in the calculator but the sample on the datasheets for G25 is just "MAR_EN".
    Code:
    Morocco_Early_Neolithic_Farmer_MAR_EN,-0.1735805,0.0919055,-0.0258325,-0.083657,0.0283125,-0.0596825,-0.079316,0.021461,0.1500185,0.0043735,0.0222475,-0.0264515,0.075148,-0.0461725,0.069353,-0.03381,0.0171455,-0.05549,-0.1487635,0.0340785,-0.038245,-0.118212,0.0826995,-0.009941,0.021615
    I've been looking some studies on this population and I found one I think it's good and I'd like to share it here: https://www.researchgate.net/publica...ant_and_Europe

    Links to download in case you can't from the original:
    Study: https://disk.yandex.com/i/xoyRd9jQm4850A
    Supplementary Notes: https://disk.yandex.com/i/ukJTLZBTsOef9g

    I'll leave some pics here:
     
    The supposed population equivalent is tagged as "IAM".

    PCA:
    IMG_20210718_142617.jpg

    Admixture K8:
    IMG_20210718_142827.jpg

    Fst:
    IMG_20210718_143329.jpg


    You can also find f3 and f4 statistics in Supplementary Notes, but I don't know much about them yet, so any interpretation on the information they give is welcomed.

    Do you know anything more about this population? If I remember correctly, modern Moroccans had like ~40% admixture of MAR_EN according to that calculator on Vahaduo. Could that sample be suitable to be used to research on modern and ancient Iberians' African admixture before their contact with the Muslim entrance in 711?
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    French & German: 4.7%
    Italian: 0.6%
    Trace: Senegambian & Guinean: 0.2%

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