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Thread: R-YP4141 (R1a2) rising from the ashes! New branches discovered!

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theramster View Post
    Your analogy is false.
    Noone claimed that R1a-YP1272 originated where it has dispersed. Yet the pattern of dispersal is telling, especially when the order of separation is very ancient and when particular modern geographical clades cluster together. It is pointless to discuss what you're not willing to learn.

    The weird myopic dichotomy of Eastern Europe/Asia with no nuances or the very basic use of maps and directions (North/South-East/West). Karelia and Estonia are not Ukraine, and neither is the Caucasus. There is an indication of north-south migration predating your celebrated event. I suggest you get a map, place the ancient YP1272 ( start with M459* in Ukraine). Then place all modern YP1272 with their clusters( you probably don't know any of them - there are 18 so far) on the map, check their MRCA. Any rational person can make an informed initial impression.

    Cheers,
    Karelia and Estonia are even more northeast than Ukraine so I don't understand how basal R1a in Karelia and Estonia is pointing to some old pre-Indo-Iranian presence of R1a in West Asia. There is not even any archaeological or historical link between these regions especially not before Indo-Iranians.

    Ancient DNA is the only thing that can prove or disprove theories here and modern DNA is mostly irrelevant for tracing the migration of rare clade else basal R1b or R1a should be present in pre-Columbian America because it will be most diverse there today.

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  3. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmountains View Post
    Karelia and Estonia are even more northeast than Ukraine so I don't understand how basal R1a in Karelia and Estonia is pointing to some old pre-Indo-Iranian presence of R1a in West Asia.
    I do not disagree with the gist of your argument, but I would like to point out that Estonia is located far north of the western end of Ukraine, beyond Belarus, Lithuania, and Latvia. Karelia is located at a great distance to the north of central Ukraine. Therefore, your statement that "Karelia and Estonia are even more northeast than Ukraine" is geographically incorrect; they are rather north (and perhaps, at least in the case of Estonia, one might say northwest) of Ukraine.

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  5. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ebizur View Post
    I do not disagree with the gist of your argument, but I would like to point out that Estonia is located far north of the western end of Ukraine, beyond Belarus, Lithuania, and Latvia. Karelia is located at a great distance to the north of central Ukraine. Therefore, your statement that "Karelia and Estonia are even more northeast than Ukraine" is geographically incorrect; they are rather north (and perhaps, at least in the case of Estonia, one might say northwest) of Ukraine.
    That is really not the point and from a archeological and genetically point of view Estonia and especially Karelia was part of northeast Europe (strong EHG shift of HGs, Comb Ceramic) in pre-historical and historical times

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  7. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmountains View Post
    That is really not the point and from a archeological and genetically point of view Estonia was shifted towards northeast Europe (strong EHG shift of HGs, Comb Ceramic)
    Did you read the first clause of my comment?

  8. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ebizur View Post
    Did you read the first sentence of my comment?
    Yeah and it is an irrelevant point to discuss if Estonia or even Karelia is geographically north or northeast of Ukraine because of few hundred miles. That was not the point here and I am aware of the geography. Estonia is often classified as northeast European country unlike Ukraine which is classified just as East European.

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  10. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmountains View Post
    Yeah and it is an irrelevant point to discuss if Estonia is geographically north or northeast of Ukraine. That was not the point here and I am aware of the geography.
    In that case, I think it would be preferable if you would write in a manner that makes it clear that you are aware of geography.

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  12. #37
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    Tunisia
    I think that PES001 sample (the oldest R1a sample) Cleary indicates that YP1272 was a prominent EHG lineage from North West russia but it's rarity combined with it's geographic distribution make difficult to link this branche to any known population or civilization
    Last edited by Darko; 07-23-2021 at 12:17 AM.

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  14. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheAnatolian View Post
    ...my line which is exclusively concentrated in Eastern Anatolia, Caucasus and Mesopotamia. We are yet to find any link to Central or Eastern Iran, let alone India or Central Asia.
    I was struck by this statement and the map and would like to bring up what I believe may be a possible analogue to your R-FT1864/Y45596. It is R-CTS6, primarily relevant to me for having the largest known Ashkenazi lineage downstream- R-Y2619- which makes up just under 8% of all Ashkenazi male lines. Beyond this though, it is an intriguing lineage; same TMRCA as yours (c. 2800 ybp), with a similar "Eastern Anatolia, Caucasus and Mesopotamia" spread, just with some representation from SE Iran with the two samples from Kerman province. It's also similarly in a relatively opaque Steppe-derived context, with R-F1345's MRCA probably (IMO) still being present on the steppe c. 1800 BCE.

    I going to wager a guess and say that Central, Eastern, and Southern Iran are extremely undersampled and their absence here is not telling of anything specific. It'd take a study like the Turkish WGS one before we could make a solid argument-by-absence.

    Best of luck in your research into your clade!
     
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  16. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by CopperAxe View Post
    Yes in the northern parts of Stavropol Krai, fully in the steppes and hundreds of kilometers away from the Caucasus mountains.

    This is only considered the Caucasus due to history and how the borders were set up. A few kilometers here and there and nobody would be describing this sample as having inhabited the Caucasus.
    It's true that the area that this individual was buried in was for all intents and purposes the steppes, and that it is only considered to be in the Caucasus due to historical reasons as you have pointed out. But what I found most interesting was that the R-YP1272 sample SA60013 and another sample found not far from it, IV3002, both harboured significant Anatolian Chalcolithic ancestry. In fact around 30-40% of the genome of one of these outliers was from an Eneolithic Caucasus source which is basically a 50/50 mixture of Anatolian Chalcolithic and Caucasian Hunter Gatherer, that is in stark contrast with other Steppe Maykop samples who are 100% Eneolithic Steppe derived. This shows a very clear intermingling of populations from south of the Caucasus Mountains with people of the steppe. Therefore, I don't think that we can rule out the possibility of R1a clades making their way south through these interactions. All it takes is one R1a male to end up on the other side of the mountains to facilitate the diffusion of the haplogroup in the Caucasus and the Near East, even if at very low numbers such as in the case with R-YP1272.

    Capture1.PNG

    Interestingly, you can find all three main branches of R-YP1272 represented in the Caucasus. Y12636, YP1276 and YP1276>Y53588. There is no other region where all three branches are concentrated like this.

    yp1272 clusters.jpg

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  18. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheAnatolian View Post
    It's true that the area that this individual was buried in was for all intents and purposes the steppes, and that it is only considered to be in the Caucasus due to historical reasons as you have pointed out. But what I found most interesting was that the R-YP1272 sample SA60013 and another sample found not far from it, IV3002, both harboured significant Anatolian Chalcolithic ancestry. In fact around 30-40% of the genome of one of these outliers was from an Eneolithic Caucasus source which is basically a 50/50 mixture of Anatolian Chalcolithic and Caucasian Hunter Gatherer, that is in stark contrast with other Steppe Maykop samples who are 100% Eneolithic Steppe derived. This shows a very clear intermingling of populations from south of the Caucasus Mountains with people of the steppe. Therefore, I don't think that we can rule out the possibility of R1a clades making their way south through these interactions. All it takes is one R1a male to end up on the other side of the mountains to facilitate the diffusion of the haplogroup in the Caucasus and the Near East, even if at very low numbers such as in the case with R-YP1272.

    Capture1.PNG

    Interestingly, you can find all three main branches of R-YP1272 represented in the Caucasus. Y12636, YP1276 and YP1276>Y53588. There is no other region where all three branches are concentrated like this.

    yp1272 clusters.jpg
    Well the mixing between the Caucausus and Steppe Maykop peoples didnt really seem to be that significant in the Caucasian communities if we look at the Maykop published genomes. Steppe Maykop genomes with Maykop ancestry dont tell really you anything about their ancestry going into the Caucasus. Those Maykop samples do have steppe_en type ancestry, as these type of populations lived north of the caucasus. There is a sporadic trail of V1636 in Kura-Araxes and Arslantepe which probably comes from those steppe eneolithic populations, that might also be where SA6013 got his Y-dna clade from, if not from populations even further north.

    There were tons of migrations of steppe peoples into the Caucasus from the bronze age onwards and I think you'd have to establish such a migration before turning towards modern distribution and then attributing this R1a clade to steppe Maykop migrations through the Caucasus, when the individual was an outlier too.
    Last edited by CopperAxe; 07-28-2021 at 07:16 AM. Reason: Typos

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