Page 1 of 5 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 47

Thread: R-YP4141 (R1a2) rising from the ashes! New branches discovered!

  1. #1
    Registered Users
    Posts
    32
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    Zaza / Laz / Turk / Kurd
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1a YP4141>YP5018
    mtDNA (M)
    U3b2a1

    Lazistan Iran Safavid Empire Kurdistan Turkey

    R-YP4141 (R1a2) rising from the ashes! New branches discovered!

    R-YP4141 (R1a2) rising from the ashes!

    Ever since I can remember I have always been fascinated by ancient history and as a kid I even dreamt about one day becoming a famous archaeologist. The thought of digging up the ruins of lost city in a field in a far-off land, or unearthing an artefact from an ancient civilisation and contributing to science was always very appealing to me.

    My story starts one and a half years ago was when I decided to take my first Y-DNA test with Family Tree DNA. My brother had taken a test with 23andme so I knew that I belonged to haplogroup R1a but I wanted to do a deeper test in order to learn the exact clade. I did not know it at the time, but this would be the beginning of a wonderful journey of discovery that would enable me to trace my paternal line further than I had ever imagined was possible.

    On the very day that my results were published, before I even had a chance to see it, I was contacted by a couple of very excited people who quickly introduced themselves as distant cousins of mine and explained that we belonged to an exceedingly rare clade of R1a, the first clade to diverge from M420 to be exact. They invited me to join a WhatsApp group that they had created with other YP4141>YP5018 cousins. I quickly made friends with my newfound albeit very distant cousins, and we spent countless hours, days, weeks getting to know each other and discussing various theories about the origin and history of our rare and mysterious clade. These theories were mostly tongue in cheek and included many outlandish notions such as being descended from ancient Hittites and Indo-Iranians, to being descended from one of the lost Jewish tribes of Israel, to my favourite theory, being teleported from space by aliens. Needless to say, none of which was based on any evidence what-so-ever, especially the theory about the aliens.

    In my spare time I tried to do my own research about R-YP4141, but I quickly realised that there was little to no information to be found online about our line. The only information that I could find was either from YFull, the results page of FTDNA’s R1a Project, and couple of outdated posts on YP5018 mainly in this forum. My frustration for the lack of information and data drove me to decide then and there to make it my mission to learn as much about R-YP4141 as possible and to compile that information and to share it with anyone interested in learning about it. I did not want any future testers from our clade to go through the disappointment that I went through, to risk losing interest and giving up. So, I went off and created a Facebook group titled ‘R-YP4141 & Subclades’. In the beginning things were very slow, we only had a handful of members and the majority of them were friends from our WhatsApp group and a few male relatives, but things were about to change for the better. One day, out of the blue three people joined the group who we did not recognise. One by one they introduced themselves as belonging to our sister branch YP4132>YP4131 from the British Isles and thanked us for creating the Facebook group. We welcomed them warmly as they started inviting other YP4131 members to join our group. We were so excited to meet people from another branch of YP4141. The best thing of all was that these new people happened to be just as passionate about discovering our shared past as we were, and it kicked off a collaboration and ultimately a friendship that is still continuing today.

    Fast forward twelve months and things are looking vastly different to when I first received my results one and a half years ago. Today we have our own FTDNA Project titled ‘R1a YP4141 & Subclades’ with 151 members strong and growing. In the short time we have grown our project and promoted countless Big Y-700 tests, and as a result have been directly responsible for the discovery of completely new branches of YP4141 in places like Germany, Italy, Iran and India. We were able to grow the pitiful YP4141 haplotwig into an haplotree that we can all be proud of.

    Today, thanks to our hard work we are finally starting to see that R-YP4141 is not as mysterious as what we initially imagined it to be. We have learnt that its origin was indeed in Eastern Europe like all other clades of R1a. The 3rd oldest R1a I5876 Dereivka Mesolithic belongs to the same line as YP5018. R-YP4141 is in fact just a microcosm of its much more prominent and prolific R-M417 cousin. They both cover roughly the same geographic area; the only difference is that there are a lot fewer of us out there than our R-M417 brethren.

    I believe that I can even link one of the branches (R-FT315528) to Indo-Iranians and the Z93 expansion. Although we don't have a tonne of data we have an atDNA of an 3566 year old individual (I4773) from an Andronovo site in Eastern Kazakhstan belonging to YP4132* and downstream branches are in Iran, India and around the Persian Gulf.

    Although that dream of being an archaeologist never did eventuate, I count myself incredibly lucky to have found a purpose that is just as exciting and meaningful in my adulthood. I look forward to continuing the work of our project for many years to come and advancing scientific knowledge about our small section in the history of humanity.


    YP4141 chart Updated 2.png

    I created the above chart after being inspired by the original R1a chart by L. Lubicz-Lapinski. It is still a work in progress and I will continue to update it as we continue collect more data and discover more and branches.

    Please feel free to analyse the chart and discuss any of the findings in the comments section below.

    Lastly, if there are any lost R-YP4141 members out there you can reach us in the following links.

    FTDNA Project - https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r1ayp4141/about

    Facebook Group - https://www.facebook.com/groups/573539423259107

    YFull Group - https://www.yfull.com/groups/r-yp4141/

    Cheers!
    Last edited by TheAnatolian; 07-18-2021 at 01:15 AM.

  2. The Following 24 Users Say Thank You to TheAnatolian For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (07-17-2021),  Alain (07-20-2021),  alchemist223 (07-17-2021),  Alessandro Max (07-20-2021),  altvred (07-21-2021),  Artmar (07-22-2021),  btmacdowell (07-19-2021),  Coldmountains (07-20-2021),  Darko (07-21-2021),  discreetmaverick (07-17-2021),  dosas (07-21-2021),  JLJD (07-19-2021),  JoeyP37 (07-17-2021),  Kulin (07-20-2021),  leorcooper19 (07-20-2021),  Lupriac (07-20-2021),  Luso (07-17-2021),  Marmaduke (07-17-2021),  Michał (07-17-2021),  parasar (07-17-2021),  Pribislav (07-19-2021),  Riverman (07-21-2021),  Smilelover (07-17-2021),  Theramster (07-21-2021)

  3. #2
    Registered Users
    Posts
    293
    Sex
    Location
    Alta California
    Ethnicity
    Mostly French + Italian
    Nationality
    American
    Y-DNA (P)
    R-BY3604
    Y-DNA (M)
    most likely J-L210
    mtDNA (P)
    K1b2b

    Canada Quebec Italy California Republic United States of America
    It seems that R1a-YP4141 lived in a similar place/culture to that of R1a-M198, yet for whatever reason remained less demographically successful in the face of the Indo-European expansions, only being a very minor player. It'd be cool to find more R-YP4141 in ancient samples to clarify its origins.
    MDKA: Robert Boulay, b. 1631, Réveillon, Orne, France
    Y-DNA: R1b-U152 > L2 > Z367 > Z34 > Z33 > BY164497> BY3604

    Maternal Y-DNA: J2a-M67 > Z1847 > Y4036 > Z467 > Z447> L210

  4. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to alchemist223 For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (07-20-2021),  JoeyP37 (07-20-2021),  Kulin (07-20-2021),  TheAnatolian (07-21-2021)

  5. #3
    Registered Users
    Posts
    32
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    Zaza / Laz / Turk / Kurd
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1a YP4141>YP5018
    mtDNA (M)
    U3b2a1

    Lazistan Iran Safavid Empire Kurdistan Turkey
    Quote Originally Posted by alchemist223 View Post
    It seems that R1a-YP4141 lived in a similar place/culture to that of R1a-M198, yet for whatever reason remained less demographically successful in the face of the Indo-European expansions, only being a very minor player.
    That is right. That is exactly what has me stumped about R-YP4141.

    For example, the line that I belong to R-YP4141>YP5018>FT1864 which can mostly be found in the Caucasus, Eastern Anatolia and Mesopotamia has a sister branch R-YP4141>YP5018>FTA9383, that is only found in Germany, Netherlands, Austria and Northern Italy. The two branches appear to have split from their parent branch at around 3,600 BC years according to the YFull.com age estimates, which is roughly around the time of the Yamnaya and Cucuteni-Trypillia cultures. I suspect that they would have split in Ukraine or there about, as we know that our line was present in Ukraine at around 6,870 BC thanks to aDNA evidence. So, although our paternal lineage were in the region at the same time as the Yamnaya clans, I suspect that the members of YP5018, like YP4132, were not part of the dominant clan(s) that were involved in the Indo-European expansion, but somehow managed to evade being wiped out completely and probably went through successive severe bottle necks before finally being able to successfully establishing themselves in their current geographic regions.

    Speaking of bottle necks and establishing themselves, the patriarch of our line, R-YP4141>YP5018>FT1864 most likely arrived in the Southern Caucasus / Eastern Anatolia around 2,800 years ago, which also happens to coincide with the foundation of the kingdom Urartu in the same geographic region. As soon as R-FT1864 arrives, it appears to branch out in all directions in a star-like phylogeny. Today it can be found in a multitude of different ethno / religious groups in the Caucasus, Eastern Anatolia, Mesopotamia, Iran, the Levant, the Arabian Peninsula and around the Persian Gulf.

    Having said all of that, these are merely my own theories based on the data that is available to me. I might be on the right track, or I might also be completely off the mark. Only time will tell.

  6. The Following 8 Users Say Thank You to TheAnatolian For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (07-20-2021),  Alain (07-20-2021),  alchemist223 (07-20-2021),  Coldmountains (07-20-2021),  JoeyP37 (07-20-2021),  Kulin (07-20-2021),  Lupriac (07-20-2021),  parasar (07-20-2021)

  7. #4
    Moderator
    Posts
    2,662
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    Pashtun/East-Slavic
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1a-Z93

    Quote Originally Posted by TheAnatolian View Post
    That is right. That is exactly what has me stumped about R-YP4141.

    For example, the line that I belong to R-YP4141>YP5018>FT1864 which can mostly be found in the Caucasus, Eastern Anatolia and Mesopotamia has a sister branch R-YP4141>YP5018>FTA9383, that is only found in Germany, Netherlands, Austria and Northern Italy. The two branches appear to have split from their parent branch at around 3,600 BC years according to the YFull.com age estimates, which is roughly around the time of the Yamnaya and Cucuteni-Trypillia cultures. I suspect that they would have split in Ukraine or there about, as we know that our line was present in Ukraine at around 6,870 BC thanks to aDNA evidence. So, although our paternal lineage were in the region at the same time as the Yamnaya clans, I suspect that the members of YP5018, like YP4132, were not part of the dominant clan(s) that were involved in the Indo-European expansion, but somehow managed to evade being wiped out completely and probably went through successive severe bottle necks before finally being able to successfully establishing themselves in their current geographic regions.

    Speaking of bottle necks and establishing themselves, the patriarch of our line, R-YP4141>YP5018>FT1864 most likely arrived in the Southern Caucasus / Eastern Anatolia around 2,800 years ago, which also happens to coincide with the foundation of the kingdom Urartu in the same geographic region. As soon as R-FT1864 arrives, it appears to branch out in all directions in a star-like phylogeny. Today it can be found in a multitude of different ethno / religious groups in the Caucasus, Eastern Anatolia, Mesopotamia, Iran, the Levant, the Arabian Peninsula and around the Persian Gulf.

    Having said all of that, these are merely my own theories based on the data that is available to me. I might be on the right track, or I might also be completely off the mark. Only time will tell.
    R-YP4141 looks like a minor Andronovo and ultimately Fatyanovo/CWC lineage. Keep in mind that we already have found I2a (Swat_IA Indo-Aryans) and R1b (Sintashta outliners,..) in Indo-Iranian contexts and these lines are even more diverged than YP4141 from M417 . Unlike R1b R1a including basal R1a was until 2000 B.C pretty much restricted to East Europe and we don't see it in ancient Asia, Anatolia, Catacomb/Yamnaya culture or the Caucasus before Indo-Iranians. It is also not present in Armenia_BA and the basal clades in these regions found today are not necessarily the result of an old presence and could diffuse from West Iranic speakers nearby.

    R-YP4141 in Europe could have another story but even here I rather would link it to CWC and we already have found in CWC/Post CWC both R1b-L51, basal R1b and R1a which share a common ancestor even farer back in time

  8. The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to Coldmountains For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (07-20-2021),  Alain (07-20-2021),  alchemist223 (07-20-2021),  Kulin (07-20-2021),  TheAnatolian (07-21-2021)

  9. #5
    Registered Users
    Posts
    1,255
    Sex
    Location
    Brazil
    Ethnicity
    Rio de Janeiro Colonial
    Nationality
    Brazilian
    Y-DNA (P)
    J1a1 FGC6064+ M365+
    mtDNA (M)
    H1ao1

    Suebi Kingdom Portugal 1143 Portugal 1485 Portugal Order of Christ Brazilian Empire Brazil
    R-YP4141 is a "normal" clade from PIE original lands, a very competitive and tough region like the South of the Caucasus, Eastern Anatolia, Armenia and NW Iran. We can observe they had a Mesolithic node around 12000ybp, what is another decisive feature from that region. Branches with "Superpatriarchs" were always in new frontiers in underdeveloped new regions of IE expansion without settled and established ancient PIE fierce clades that fought, survived and branched in the same local core arena since the Paleolithic-Mesolithic.
    J1 FGC5987 to FGC6175 (188 new SNPs)
    MDKAs before Colonial Brazil
    Y-DNA - Milhazes, Barcelos, Minho, Portugal.
    mtDNA - Ilha Terceira, Azores, Portugal
    North_Swedish + PT + PT + PT @ 3.96 EUtest 4

  10. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to RCO For This Useful Post:

     dosas (07-21-2021),  JoeyP37 (07-20-2021),  parasar (07-20-2021)

  11. #6
    Registered Users
    Posts
    387
    Sex

    [Deleted]
    Last edited by Lupriac; 07-20-2021 at 03:43 PM.

  12. #7
    Registered Users
    Posts
    32
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    Zaza / Laz / Turk / Kurd
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1a YP4141>YP5018
    mtDNA (M)
    U3b2a1

    Lazistan Iran Safavid Empire Kurdistan Turkey
    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmountains View Post
    R-YP4141 looks like a minor Andronovo and ultimately Fatyanovo/CWC lineage. Keep in mind that we already have found I2a (Swat_IA Indo-Aryans) and R1b (Sintashta outliners,..) in Indo-Iranian contexts and these lines are even more diverged than YP4141 from M417 . Unlike R1b R1a including basal R1a was until 2000 B.C pretty much restricted to East Europe and we don't see it in ancient Asia, Anatolia, Catacomb/Yamnaya culture or the Caucasus before Indo-Iranians. It is also not present in Armenia_BA and the basal clades in these regions found today are not necessarily the result of an old presence and could diffuse from West Iranic speakers nearby.

    R-YP4141 in Europe could have another story but even here I rather would link it to CWC and we already have found in CWC/Post CWC both R1b-L51, basal R1b and R1a which share a common ancestor even farer back in time
    Thank you for your feedback. We actually have evidence of one R-YP4141 branch in particular being related to Andronovo culture and that is R-YP4141>YP4132*. We know this thanks to the aDNA sample I4773 Aktogai_MLBA from an Andronovo site in Eastern Kazakhstan who was positive for YP4132* and was buried alongside R-Z94s. I don't know if YP4132* was present in Fatyanovo culture or if it was picked up along the way but interestingly, one of the branches downstream from it R-YP4141>YP4132>FT315528 has exclusively been found roughly in the same geography as R-Z94 namely Iran, Pakistan and Northern India and around the Persian Gulf. I think that your theory fits R-YP4141>YP4132>FT315528 very well, but I cannot say the same for my line which is exclusively concentrated in Eastern Anatolia, Caucasus and Mesopotamia. We are yet to find any link to Central or Eastern Iran, let alone India or Central Asia.

    Please refer to my graphic below outlining the locations of the two main branches of YP4141 and their main sub-branches in Europe and Asia. I have included arrows to indicate how I think they may have arrived to their current geographic locations.

    YP5018 & YP4132 migration routes to the Middle East.jpg

  13. The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to TheAnatolian For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (07-21-2021),  altvred (07-21-2021),  Coldmountains (07-21-2021),  Michał (07-21-2021),  parasar (07-21-2021)

  14. #8
    Registered Users
    Posts
    195
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    Coptic/Egyptian
    Nationality
    Djehutynakht tomb 10A
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1a-YP1272* (R1a1b)
    mtDNA (M)
    U5b2b5

    "Unlike R1b R1a including basal R1a was until 2000 B.C pretty much restricted to East Europe and we don't see it in ancient Asia, Anatolia, Catacomb/Yamnaya culture or the Caucasus before Indo-Iranians"

    I beg to differ, unless basal excludes R1a1b!
    εὐλογημένος ὁ λαός μου ὁ ἐν Αἰγύπτῳ
    Efesmamat enje Pa Laos phé etqen Khémi

    aDNA- Closest Populations
    Paleo DNA
    YORK 3DRIF-26
    British-Roman @ 3.74757
    South Levant Bronze Age
    Levant_BA @ 7.687333

  15. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Theramster For This Useful Post:

     dosas (07-21-2021),  JoeyP37 (07-21-2021),  parasar (07-21-2021),  TheAnatolian (07-21-2021)

  16. #9
    Moderator
    Posts
    2,662
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    Pashtun/East-Slavic
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1a-Z93

    Quote Originally Posted by Theramster View Post
    "Unlike R1b R1a including basal R1a was until 2000 B.C pretty much restricted to East Europe and we don't see it in ancient Asia, Anatolia, Catacomb/Yamnaya culture or the Caucasus before Indo-Iranians"

    I beg to differ, unless basal excludes R1a1b!
    Any kind of basal R1a was not found in ancient West Asia, Central Asia, Siberia, the Caucasus or even Anatolia before 2000 B.C and unlikely will be in pre-Indo-Iranian West Asia. On the otherside basal R1a clades were already found in Andronovo and related groups. R1b seemingly was much more frequent until CWC in North Eurasia and basal R1b clades already diffused into West Asia/Central Asia before even IEs but this seems not the case for any R1a so far.

  17. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Coldmountains For This Useful Post:

     CopperAxe (07-21-2021),  Michał (07-21-2021)

  18. #10
    Registered Users
    Posts
    766
    Sex

    Netherlands Kenya
    Quote Originally Posted by Theramster View Post
    "Unlike R1b R1a including basal R1a was until 2000 B.C pretty much restricted to East Europe and we don't see it in ancient Asia, Anatolia, Catacomb/Yamnaya culture or the Caucasus before Indo-Iranians"

    I beg to differ, unless basal excludes R1a1b!
    Beg to differ how?

  19. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to CopperAxe For This Useful Post:

     altvred (07-21-2021),  btmacdowell (07-21-2021),  Coldmountains (07-21-2021),  Michał (07-21-2021)

Page 1 of 5 123 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 18
    Last Post: 09-07-2021, 06:16 PM
  2. Branches of Z142
    By MitchellSince1893 in forum L2
    Replies: 380
    Last Post: 07-27-2021, 06:04 AM
  3. branches E-V12 in Morocco
    By capsian in forum E
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 03-11-2021, 11:37 PM
  4. The origin of the mysterious R1a2a YP4141 > YP5018
    By TheAnatolian in forum R1a General
    Replies: 28
    Last Post: 07-01-2020, 04:55 AM
  5. R1a - YP4141 + with R1b M-269+ ???
    By Smilelover in forum R1a General
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 03-23-2017, 10:45 AM

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •