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Thread: R-YP4141 (R1a2) rising from the ashes! New branches discovered!

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmountains View Post

    Ancient DNA is the only thing that can prove or disprove theories here and modern DNA is mostly irrelevant for tracing the migration of rare clade else basal R1b or R1a should be present in pre-Columbian America because it will be most diverse there today.
    This is very interesting. Are you saying we cannot figure out from these American R1a and R1b whether they are the product of recent migration? We can by comparing them with all others in America and elsewhere, and find their true relationship. So again a bad analogy.

    By your own reasoning, even ancient DNA can't prove anything, since it can be another ancient migration from another place.

    It is the totality of information available that inclines us one way or the other, not just isolated facts or dogmatic theories. And yes the more information, the more serious the thought, the more complete the picture becomes. What you proposed about recent migration for YP1272 clusters is impossible, so here newer information is refuting an old way of thinking.
    Last edited by Administrator; 08-01-2021 at 08:59 PM. Reason: Edited following administrative review
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  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by CopperAxe View Post
    Yes in the northern parts of Stavropol Krai, fully in the steppes and hundreds of kilometers away from the Caucasus mountains.

    This is only considered the Caucasus due to history and how the borders were set up. A few kilometers here and there and nobody would be describing this sample as having inhabited the Caucasus.
    It's true that the area that this individual was buried in was for all intents and purposes the steppes, and that it is only considered to be in the Caucasus due to historical reasons as you have pointed out. But what I found most interesting was that the R-YP1272 sample SA60013 and another sample found not far from it, IV3002, both harboured significant Anatolian Chalcolithic ancestry. In fact around 30-40% of the genome of one of these outliers was from an Eneolithic Caucasus source which is basically a 50/50 mixture of Anatolian Chalcolithic and Caucasian Hunter Gatherer, that is in stark contrast with other Steppe Maykop samples who are 100% Eneolithic Steppe derived. This shows a very clear intermingling of populations from south of the Caucasus Mountains with people of the steppe. Therefore, I don't think that we can rule out the possibility of R1a clades making their way south through these interactions. All it takes is one R1a male to end up on the other side of the mountains to facilitate the diffusion of the haplogroup in the Caucasus and the Near East, even if at very low numbers such as in the case with R-YP1272.

    Capture1.PNG

    Interestingly, you can find all three main branches of R-YP1272 represented in the Caucasus. Y12636, YP1276 and YP1276>Y53588. There is no other region where all three branches are concentrated like this.

    yp1272 clusters.jpg

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  4. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheAnatolian View Post
    It's true that the area that this individual was buried in was for all intents and purposes the steppes, and that it is only considered to be in the Caucasus due to historical reasons as you have pointed out. But what I found most interesting was that the R-YP1272 sample SA60013 and another sample found not far from it, IV3002, both harboured significant Anatolian Chalcolithic ancestry. In fact around 30-40% of the genome of one of these outliers was from an Eneolithic Caucasus source which is basically a 50/50 mixture of Anatolian Chalcolithic and Caucasian Hunter Gatherer, that is in stark contrast with other Steppe Maykop samples who are 100% Eneolithic Steppe derived. This shows a very clear intermingling of populations from south of the Caucasus Mountains with people of the steppe. Therefore, I don't think that we can rule out the possibility of R1a clades making their way south through these interactions. All it takes is one R1a male to end up on the other side of the mountains to facilitate the diffusion of the haplogroup in the Caucasus and the Near East, even if at very low numbers such as in the case with R-YP1272.

    Capture1.PNG

    Interestingly, you can find all three main branches of R-YP1272 represented in the Caucasus. Y12636, YP1276 and YP1276>Y53588. There is no other region where all three branches are concentrated like this.

    yp1272 clusters.jpg
    Well the mixing between the Caucausus and Steppe Maykop peoples didnt really seem to be that significant in the Caucasian communities if we look at the Maykop published genomes. Steppe Maykop genomes with Maykop ancestry dont tell really you anything about their ancestry going into the Caucasus. Those Maykop samples do have steppe_en type ancestry, as these type of populations lived north of the caucasus. There is a sporadic trail of V1636 in Kura-Araxes and Arslantepe which probably comes from those steppe eneolithic populations, that might also be where SA6013 got his Y-dna clade from, if not from populations even further north.

    There were tons of migrations of steppe peoples into the Caucasus from the bronze age onwards and I think you'd have to establish such a migration before turning towards modern distribution and then attributing this R1a clade to steppe Maykop migrations through the Caucasus, when the individual was an outlier too.
    Last edited by CopperAxe; 07-28-2021 at 07:16 AM. Reason: Typos

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  6. #44
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    I wasn't trying to argue with you or trying to draw any conclusions regarding why, how or when R-YP1272 arrived in the Caucasus. I certainly don't have all of the answers to these questions, and I'm not about to pretend like I do when there is not enough data to say anything with any certainty. As you have pointed out in the previous post, we now have proof that R1b subclades such as V1636 arrived to the Southern Caucasus and Eastern Anatolia much earlier than Indo-Iranians. I think that there is still a lot that we don't know about these relic R1a clades, or what exactly was happening in the Caucasus / Steppe boarder region 5000-3000 years ago. The explanation that all R1a clades arrived to the Near East at the same time as R-Z93 like they were all part of some neat little bundle just doesn't cut it for me, especially seeing that R-YP1272 and R-YP4141 diverged from R-M417, 12,000 and 18,000 years ago respectively.

    Were there other R1a clades that arrived with Indo-Iranians and R-Z93? Sure! I personally think that R-YP4141>YP4132>FT315528 and R-Z283>Y17491 are perfect candidates to have arrived alongside R-Z93 and Indo-Iranians. But unlike R-YP1272 and R-YP4141>YP5018, we actually have both ancient and modern samples from these clades in Central Asia, South Asia, Iran and the Middle East.

    graph.jpg
    Last edited by TheAnatolian; 07-28-2021 at 10:38 AM.

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  8. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheAnatolian View Post
    I wasn't trying to argue with you or trying to draw any conclusions regarding why, how or when R-YP1272 arrived in the Caucasus. I certainly don't have all of the answers to these questions, and I'm not about to pretend like I do when there is not enough data to say anything with any certainty. As you have pointed out in the previous post, we now have proof that R1b subclades such as V1636 arrived to the Southern Caucasus and Eastern Anatolia much earlier than Indo-Iranians. I think that there is still a lot that we don't know about these relic R1a clades, or what exactly was happening in the Caucasus / Steppe boarder region 5000-3000 years ago. The explanation that all R1a clades arrived to the Near East at the same time as R-Z93 like they were all part of some neat little bundle just doesn't cut it for me, especially seeing that R-YP1272 and R-YP4141 diverged from R-M417, 12,000 and 18,000 years ago respectively.

    Were there other R1a clades that arrived with Indo-Iranians and R-Z93? Sure! I personally think that R-YP4141>YP4132>FT315528 and R-Z283>Y17491 are perfect candidates to have arrived alongside R-Z93 and Indo-Iranians. But unlike R-YP1272 and R-YP4141>YP5018, we actually have both ancient and modern samples from these clades in Central Asia, South Asia, Iran and the Middle East.

    graph.jpg
    What about R-YP1272 >YP1276>Y53588? Maybe it ended up in North Africa with vandal?

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  10. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darko View Post
    What about R-YP1272 >YP1276>Y53588? Maybe it ended up in North Africa with vandal?
    That is a possibility. It might have even arrived to North Africa with the Muslim and Sephardic migrants who were evicted from the Iberian Peninsula during the Reconquista of Spain and Portugal. The vast majority of them were resettled in North Africa. I believe that there are also a couple of samples from Northern Spain / Basque country and also a Sephardic Jew who all belong to R-YP1272>YP1276>Y53588. Either way I think that there is a some kind of link to the Iberian Peninsula. We need at least one or more samples from this branch in order to obtain more accurate age estimates between you and the other members of Y53588. Lastly, we will also need some aDNA of an individual this lineage in order to say anything with any level of certainty.

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  12. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheAnatolian View Post
    I wasn't trying to argue with you or trying to draw any conclusions regarding why, how or when R-YP1272 arrived in the Caucasus. I certainly don't have all of the answers to these questions, and I'm not about to pretend like I do when there is not enough data to say anything with any certainty. As you have pointed out in the previous post, we now have proof that R1b subclades such as V1636 arrived to the Southern Caucasus and Eastern Anatolia much earlier than Indo-Iranians. I think that there is still a lot that we don't know about these relic R1a clades, or what exactly was happening in the Caucasus / Steppe boarder region 5000-3000 years ago. The explanation that all R1a clades arrived to the Near East at the same time as R-Z93 like they were all part of some neat little bundle just doesn't cut it for me, especially seeing that R-YP1272 and R-YP4141 diverged from R-M417, 12,000 and 18,000 years ago respectively.

    Were there other R1a clades that arrived with Indo-Iranians and R-Z93? Sure! I personally think that R-YP4141>YP4132>FT315528 and R-Z283>Y17491 are perfect candidates to have arrived alongside R-Z93 and Indo-Iranians. But unlike R-YP1272 and R-YP4141>YP5018, we actually have both ancient and modern samples from these clades in Central Asia, South Asia, Iran and the Middle East.

    graph.jpg
    And it has already been noted that this R-V1636 and the minor 'Steppe' ancestry are a sign of a very early introgression of this ancestry in western Asia, before the Indo-European spread.

    Perhaps R1a-Y12636 and R1b-PH155 moved together very early on with the ancestors of the Arslantepe R1b-V1636 group in the late Chalcolithic/early Bronze age, and R1a-YP4141>YP5018 tugged in as a minor haplogroup (R1b-V1636>.R-BY202076 has a close MRCA with this clade) . The former two have a similar MRCA (technically the same TMRCA but they aren't 100% accurate) estimate, and both seem to pop up in Western Asia and North Africa. But R1a is a totally different haplogroup than R1b so this is just speculation.
    Last edited by Lupriac; 07-29-2021 at 06:07 PM.

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