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Thread: R-YP4141 (R1a2) rising from the ashes! New branches discovered!

  1. #11
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    "Any kind of basal R1a was not found in ancient West Asia, Central Asia, Siberia, the Caucasus or even Anatolia before 2000 B.C"

    SmartSelect_20210721-052340_Samsung Internet.jpg
    SmartSelect_20210721-052759_Samsung Internet.jpgSmartSelect_20210721-052759_Samsung Internet.jpgSmartSelect_20210721-052759_Samsung Internet.jpg

    SA6013 is R1a-YP1272 (R1a1b) dated to 5217 ybp (older than 2000 BC)
    From
    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-018-08220-8

    Cheers,
    εὐλογημένος ὁ λαός μου ὁ ἐν Αἰγύπτῳ
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  3. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theramster View Post
    "Any kind of basal R1a was not found in ancient West Asia, Central Asia, Siberia, the Caucasus or even Anatolia before 2000 B.C"

    SmartSelect_20210721-052340_Samsung Internet.jpg
    SmartSelect_20210721-052759_Samsung Internet.jpgSmartSelect_20210721-052759_Samsung Internet.jpgSmartSelect_20210721-052759_Samsung Internet.jpg

    SA6013 is R1a-YP1272 (R1a1b) dated to 5217 ybp (older than 2000 BC)
    From
    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-018-08220-8

    Cheers,
    That is not West Asia and in the North Caucasus (not actual Caucasus mountains), which is geographically still considered as part of East Europe. The sample is a Steppe_Maykop_O with much WSHG and Progress_Eneolithic ancestry and the latter is linked to his R1a most likely. The region north of the Caucasus had R1a and R1b since the Mesolithic if not earlier but this region was genetically closer to the Volga-Don region than to any regions south of the Caucasus or in West Asia

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  5. #13
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    Indeed North Caucasus, 3000 BC, and basal R1a. ��
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  7. #14
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    [QUOTE=Coldmountains;786245]That is not West Asia and in the North Caucasus (not actual Caucasus mountains)

    "Caucasus is a region spanning Europe and Asia. It is situated between the Black Sea and the Caspian Sea and mainly occupied by Armenia, Azerbaijan, Georgia, and parts of Southern Russia. It is home to the Caucasus Mountains, including the Greater Caucasus mountain range, which has historically been considered a natural barrier between Eastern Europe and Western Asia"

    West Asia ? Who claimed it was?
    Then you go on stating the obvious sample's autosomal. What's the point?

    You made a statement earlier and this YP1272 is an obvious exception.

    I can also deduce from the likes that you're all reacting to something ( in your imagination), and I assume it is to people promoting alternative origins of R1a. I don't believe R1a originated anywhere other than where the ancient DNA samples clearly point out ( I don't have to reiterate the obvious), but this YP1272 was buried in a Kurgan in the Caucasus 3000 BC ( I'd say in a pronounced departure from other ancient YP1272's). Nothing can change that!

    Cheers,
    Last edited by Theramster; 07-21-2021 at 11:18 AM.
    εὐλογημένος ὁ λαός μου ὁ ἐν Αἰγύπτῳ
    Efesmamat enje Pa Laos phé etqen Khémi

    aDNA- Closest Populations
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  9. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theramster View Post

    "Caucasus is a region spanning Europe and Asia. It is situated between the Black Sea and the Caspian Sea and mainly occupied by Armenia, Azerbaijan, Georgia, and parts of Southern Russia. It is home to the Caucasus Mountains, including the Greater Caucasus mountain range, which has historically been considered a natural barrier between Eastern Europe and Western Asia)"

    West Asia ? Who claimed it was?
    Then you go on stating the obvious sample's autosomal. What's the point?

    You made a statement earlier and this YP1272 is an obvious exception.

    I can also deduce from the likes that you're all reacting to something ( in your imagination), and I assume it is to people promoting alternative origins to R1a. I don't believe R1a originated anywhere other than where the ancient DNA samples clearly point out ( I don't have to reiterate the obvious), but this YP1272 was buried in a Kurgan in the Caucasus 3000 BC ( I'd say in a pronounced departure from other ancient YP1272's). Nothing can change that!

    Cheers,
    My point was that no R1a was found before IEs and especially Indo-Iranians in West Asia and this sample is not in any way contradicting this. There is so far little evidence that people like SA6013 with basal R1a migrated in masses before Indo-Iranians to West Asia or even the South Caucasus. On the other side, there was a massive and big wave of Indo-Iranians having a lasting linguistic and genetic impact, who carried some confirmed basal R1a, reaching Syria in 1800 B.C and today basal R1a clades in the region peak among West Iranics like Kurds what I don't think is just a coincidence.

    You can not assume especially for rare clades that modern-day distribution is in any way representative for distribution in the Neolithic, Bronze Age or even Iron Age without ancient DNA confirming this. Basal R1a clades were various times found EHGs but are today basically absent in East Europe except for few exceptions. The same probably happened with much of the basal R1a clades of Andronovo/Abashevo/Fatyanovo and even most of the old important Z93/Z94 clades died out in East Europe already in the Iron Age despite being born there and quite numerous among Indo-Iranians today. Also many Indo-Iranians are ridiculously undersampled (less than 10 private samples from Afghanistan at Yfull for example!) and a lot of these basal R1a clades from Egypt to Armenia have a good chance to have related clades in Tajikistan, Afghanistan, Iran or even South Asia

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  11. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheAnatolian View Post
    Speaking of bottle necks and establishing themselves, the patriarch of our line, R-YP4141>YP5018>FT1864 most likely arrived in the Southern Caucasus / Eastern Anatolia around 2,800 years ago, which also happens to coincide with the foundation of the kingdom Urartu in the same geographic region.
    What about the Cimmerians? They had to flee from the Scythians, but became at least culturally quite influential in the West with the Thraco-Cimmerian horizon, which transitioned into Hallstatt, and most likely weren't annihilated in the Near neither, having had close connections to the Caucasus even before.

    In any case I would search for a protohistorical or historical migration into the Near East as a potential source, considering that it must have come from Europe because of its distribution.

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  13. #17
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    they are not a typical clade for Cimmerian and do not fit in time
    Alain Dad
    Y-DNA R1a-Y33 Eastern Corderd Ware Culture Baltoslavic/ old Pruzzen
    H76 czech Republic/England (Celtic tribes ?) W3a1d Yamnaya Culture, Samara /Pontic steppe
    Scytho-Sarmatian.

    YourDNAPortal Calculator ancient K36

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    DA112_Hallstatt-Bylany_800BC 19
    DA191_Hungary_Scythian 12
    IA_Wielbark_Mas_5_PL 11
    BA_Hungary_RISE254 7
    IA_Wielbark_Kow_25_PL 7
    LBA_Lithuania_RISE598 7
    IA_Britain_York_6DRIF22 6
    IA_EastKazachstan_Is2 6
    CHL_Iran_I1670 2

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  15. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alain View Post
    they are not a typical clade for Cimmerian and do not fit in time
    They could be technically from Cimmerians but the problem is if Cimmerian brought it why we don't see other clades more typical for Cimmerians like some specific Saka-Siberian/Srubnaya Z93 and Q lines in the region among Non-Turks or non-turkic admixed people. Somehow basal Cimmerian R1a would better survive than other likely much more frequent lines. Also it does not seem that Cimmerians or Scythians had any detectable and direct impact on autosomal DNA in the region. For me, R-Y45596 seems to be linked to some Proto-West Iranic expansions hence its presence around Kurdistan/Anatolia, South Caucasus and West Asia. Maybe even Mitanni but this is already more speculative and I consider this scenario less likely based on the TMRCA around 2700 ybp +10-15% likely underestimation by Yfull. The TMRCA rather seems to fit into the period of first Iranics settling in West Asia

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  17. #19
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    [QUOTE=Coldmountains;786257]My point was that no R1a was found before IEs and especially Indo-Iranians in West Asia and this sample is not in any way contradicting this. There is so far little evidence that people like SA6013 with basal R1a migrated in masses before Indo-Iranians to West Asia or even the South Caucasus."

    Noone knows for a fact how earlier R1a clades migrated. This individual is already an outlier, so at that earlier time en masse migration akin to what later occurred in Europe is not an option.

    "On the other side, there was a massive and big wave of Indo-Iranians having a lasting linguistic and genetic impact, who carried some confirmed basal R1a, reaching Syria in 1800 B.C and today basal R1a clades in the region peak among West Iranics like Kurds what I don't think is just a coincidence."

    At this point it helps to distinguish between so-called basal clades. They indeed have unique histories.

    "You can not assume especially for rare clades that modern-day distribution is in any way representative for distribution in the Neolithic, Bronze Age or even Iron Age without ancient DNA confirming this."

    The assumptions have all been made by you. When we leave generalizations like "basal clades" behind and start examining specific rare clades and their modern distribution, it becomes apparent that migration happened in waves and not necessarily en masse ( otherwise these sub-clades would have shown more recent separation, rather the opposite is observed). We remain skeptical of any type of generalization. At this point, we only deal with facts as they present themselves to us.

    " Basal R1a clades were various times found EHGs but are today basically absent in East Europe except for few exceptions."
    I'd say "few" is exaggerating their rarity. They are under-studied, but they are not few.

    "The same probably happened with much of the basal R1a clades of Andronovo/Abashevo/Fatyanovo and even most of the old important Z93/Z94 clades died out in East Europe already in the Iron Age despite being born there and quite numerous among Indo-Iranians today. Also many Indo-Iranians are ridiculously undersampled (less than 10 private samples from Afghanistan at Yfull for example!) and

    "a lot of these basal R1a clades from Egypt to Armenia have a good chance to have related clades in Tajikistan, Afghanistan, Iran or even South Asia"

    Indeed it is expected since this is the probable route taken, but what you seem to ignore is how distant to a common ancestor the relationship often proves to be. From what I see so far by closely studying YP1272, there were many successive migration episodes to the Near East and to Europe. These sub-clades have been separated for a very long time, longer than the date you assume, and cannot be explained by what you see later with M198 sub-clades. They have to be studied on their own. I'll give you an example: We recently found a second Egyptian YP1272 (YP1306》YP1272》Y12636》BY105614》EGY). You'd expect it to be closely related in the order of hundreds of years. Rather the relation could go back up to 4000 years, between these 2 Egyptian sub-clades, before a common ancestor, and this is only these 2 Egyptian ancestors. Yfull will soon update the age of various YP1272 clades and the expectation is towards older common ancestors to the various sub-clades.

    Egypt has significant basal R presence which remains under-studied since it is not a majority haplogroup, much like the case in Europe. M198 sub-clades are young, have a focal origin and few sub-clades produced a large number of descendants. The so-called basal clades have many focal origins produced by many older migrations with a different older history. A history unknown to us because too distant.
    εὐλογημένος ὁ λαός μου ὁ ἐν Αἰγύπτῳ
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  19. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theramster View Post
    My point was that no R1a was found before IEs and especially Indo-Iranians in West Asia and this sample is not in any way contradicting this. There is so far little evidence that people like SA6013 with basal R1a migrated in masses before Indo-Iranians to West Asia or even the South Caucasus."

    Noone knows for a fact how earlier R1a clades migrated. This individual is already an outlier, so at that earlier time en masse migration akin to what later occurred in Europe is not an option.

    "On the other side, there was a massive and big wave of Indo-Iranians having a lasting linguistic and genetic impact, who carried some confirmed basal R1a, reaching Syria in 1800 B.C and today basal R1a clades in the region peak among West Iranics like Kurds what I don't think is just a coincidence."

    At this point it helps to distinguish between so-called basal clades. They indeed have unique histories.

    "You can not assume especially for rare clades that modern-day distribution is in any way representative for distribution in the Neolithic, Bronze Age or even Iron Age without ancient DNA confirming this."

    The assumptions have all been made by you. When we leave generalizations like "basal clades" behind and start examining specific rare clades and their modern distribution, it becomes apparent that migration happened in waves and not necessarily en masse ( otherwise these sub-clades would have shown more recent separation, rather the opposite is observed). We remain skeptical of any type of generalization. At this point, we only deal with facts as they present themselves to us.

    " Basal R1a clades were various times found EHGs but are today basically absent in East Europe except for few exceptions."
    I'd say "few" is exaggerating their rarity. They are under-studied, but they are not few.

    "The same probably happened with much of the basal R1a clades of Andronovo/Abashevo/Fatyanovo and even most of the old important Z93/Z94 clades died out in East Europe already in the Iron Age despite being born there and quite numerous among Indo-Iranians today. Also many Indo-Iranians are ridiculously undersampled (less than 10 private samples from Afghanistan at Yfull for example!) and

    "a lot of these basal R1a clades from Egypt to Armenia have a good chance to have related clades in Tajikistan, Afghanistan, Iran or even South Asia"

    Indeed it is expected since this is the probable route taken, but what you seem to ignore is how distant to a common ancestor the relationship often proves to be. From what I see so far by closely studying YP1272, there were many successive migration episodes to the Near East and to Europe. These sub-clades have been separated for a very long time, longer than the date you assume, and cannot be explained by what you see later with M198 sub-clades. They have to be studied on their own. I'll give you an example: We recently found a second Egyptian YP1272 (YP1306》YP1272》Y12636》BY105614》EGY). You'd expect it to be closely related in the order of hundreds of years. Rather the relation could go back up to 4000 years, between these 2 Egyptian sub-clades, before a common ancestor, and this is only these 2 Egyptian ancestors. Yfull will soon update the age of various YP1272 clades and the expectation is towards older common ancestors to the various sub-clades.

    Egypt has significant basal R presence which remains under-studied since it is not a majority haplogroup, much like the case in Europe. M198 sub-clades are young, have a focal origin and few sub-clades produced a large number of descendants. The so-called basal clades have many focal origins produced by many older migrations with a different older history. A history unknown to us because too distant.
    A basal clade is not older or has necessarily a more unique history. It just was much rarer and in many cases but not all cases that's it.

    R1a is generally so rare in Eqypt with a frequency under 1-2% (most is under deep Z93 clades linked to Indo-Iranians) that basing any pre-historical migrations from R1a distribution in Egypt will likely give wrong conclusions. I am not saying that all basal R1a could only arrive with Indo-Iranians in West Asia some specific lines likely came later from Europe/Anatolia but very unlikely earlier because ancient dna shows a clear absence of any R1a from West Asia/Anatolia to Siberia until Indo-Iranians.

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