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Thread: R-YP4141 (R1a2) rising from the ashes! New branches discovered!

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by CopperAxe View Post
    Beg to differ how?
    To be fair, I think that there is a 5380 year old Steppe Mykop sample from Dagestan who is positive for M459 and possibly YP1272.

    ID: SA6013

    Edit: Disregard what I wrote above. I posted this before seeing all the posts from the Theramster and Coldmountains.
    Last edited by TheAnatolian; 07-21-2021 at 01:58 PM.

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  3. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheAnatolian View Post
    To be fair, I think that there is a 5380 year old Steppe Mykop sample from Dagestan who is positive for M459 and possibly YP1272.

    ID: SA6013
    Yes in the northern parts of Stavropol Krai, fully in the steppes and hundreds of kilometers away from the Caucasus mountains.

    This is only considered the Caucasus due to history and how the borders were set up. A few kilometers here and there and nobody would be describing this sample as having inhabited the Caucasus.

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  5. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    What about the Cimmerians? They had to flee from the Scythians, but became at least culturally quite influential in the West with the Thraco-Cimmerian horizon, which transitioned into Hallstatt, and most likely weren't annihilated in the Near neither, having had close connections to the Caucasus even before.

    In any case I would search for a protohistorical or historical migration into the Near East as a potential source, considering that it must have come from Europe because of its distribution.
    I have considered Cimmerians, Urartians and Indo-Iranians as a possible source for the arrival of R-Y45596 (FT1864 on FTDNA) to East Anatolia / Caucasus / Mesopotamia region, as those cultures best coincide historically with the tMRCA of the group, which is around 800 BC. Unfortunately, without discovering some aDNA that links our clade to one of these cultures I feel like I'm just be clutching at straws.

    Coldmountains is right about Iran and Central Asia being undertested. For example, there was a recent medical study undertaken by Koc University in Istanbul titled ''The genetic structure of the Turkish population' which sequenced the genomes of 700 random men throughout Anatolia. Their results were uploaded to YFull and thanks to that we were able to discover two completely new branches of R1a1b (YP1272), and a previously unknown branch of R1a2b (from my subclade), as well as a couple of relic R1b branches. It just goes to show how under sampled some countries are and how little we still know about these relic clades.

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  7. #24
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    "A basal clade is not older or has necessarily a more unique history. It just was much rarer and in many cases but not all cases that's it. "

    Again it was very clear that what has been characterized as older is the separation, so it is an older separation from what you're used to. The term basal is relative to M198. To me YP1272 is not basal, M198 is! Basal is a relative term to where you choose your fixed reference on the tree. With older separation, and dispersion, the only logical option is multiple old migration events.

    "R1a is generally so rare in Eqypt with a frequency under 1-2% (most is under deep Z93 clades linked to Indo-Iranians) that basing any pre-historical migrations from R1a distribution in Egypt will likely give wrong conclusions."

    You seem too confident that everything must be Z93, and this is a problem of presupposition really. Indeed there are later Z93 branches that would accord with your worldview. I'm just wondering where you get your confidence about the absence of "basals" in Egypt. 1 or 2% in populous Egypt is not "few" any longer. Putting demography aside, it is important to point out that the great majority of unpublished R samples CANNOT be classified by your calculators ( much like my clade when first analyzed). So yes the majority of known R clades from Egypt is the late Z93, the rest are ignored because unrecognizable. I remember how frustrated an Egyptian researcher was when attempting to classify samples from Upper Egypt, which most turned out to be unidentifiable R!

    "I am not saying that all basal R1a could only arrive with Indo-Iranians in West Asia some specific lines likely came later from Europe/Anatolia but very unlikely earlier because ancient dna shows a clear absence of any R1a from West Asia/Anatolia to Siberia until Indo-Iranians."
    [/QUOTE]

    We simply don't know. We expect these "basal" clades to have arrived early on and constituted the same proportion they do today, so not a replacement event by any chance. I haven't seen any Egyptian NGS yet dating back to when these migration events are supposed to have happened ( predynastic/old kingdom), although we have old and interesting cranial analyses from this date. All mummies examined so far date back to the New Kingdom onwards (Abu Sir), and only one from the Middle Kingdom ( which turned out to be my own mtDNA, a U5b2b5). So it is too early to make any judgment yet.

    If you consider
    https://www.nature.com/articles/ejhg201450
    With its extensive sampling, you will find only two potential R1a1b. One would cluster with YP1276 (Belarus et al on Yfull) and the other with the Russian from Kabardia under Y12636. The TMRCA of the current Egyptian branch and the Russian is upwards of 7000 ybp ( more changes are forthcoming, since the Russian is not Y12636》BY105614). This diversity and old separation cannot be explained by ' oh they moved along together with Z93 later in history or of course they came later from Europe or Anatolia'. Find me similar branches in Europe and Anatolia with closer origin in time and I may believe you! I don't want to prolong, but there are clearly different sub-clades that populated the Near East and Europe. Very clear to the diligent student.

    The branches have been under-studied, so the current interpretation cannot explain the data.

    One final point: This type of attitude stifles the study of these clades. Why would anyone seek to understand their history if you seem to have all the answers, informed by your Z93 clade? No wonder they're neglected in Europe as well.

    We will be sharing more here:
    https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r1arelics/about

    Cheers,
    Last edited by Theramster; 07-21-2021 at 07:09 PM.
    εὐλογημένος ὁ λαός μου ὁ ἐν Αἰγύπτῳ
    Efesmamat enje Pa Laos phé etqen Khémi

    aDNA- Closest Populations
    Paleo DNA
    YORK 3DRIF-26
    British-Roman @ 3.74757
    South Levant Bronze Age
    Levant_BA @ 7.687333

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  9. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theramster View Post
    "A basal clade is not older or has necessarily a more unique history. It just was much rarer and in many cases but not all cases that's it. "

    Again it was very clear that what has been characterized as older is the separation, so it is an older separation from what you're used to. The term basal is relative to M198. To me YP1272 is not basal, M198 is! Basal is a relative term to where you choose your fixed reference on the tree. With older separation, and dispersion, the only logical option is multiple old migration events.

    "R1a is generally so rare in Eqypt with a frequency under 1-2% (most is under deep Z93 clades linked to Indo-Iranians) that basing any pre-historical migrations from R1a distribution in Egypt will likely give wrong conclusions."

    You seem too confident that everything must be Z93, and this is a problem of presupposition really. Indeed there are later Z93 branches that would accord with your worldview. I'm just wondering where you get your confidence about the absence of "basals" in Egypt. 1 or 2% in populous Egypt is not "few" any longer. Putting demography aside, it is important to point out that the great majority of unpublished R samples CANNOT be classified by your calculators ( much like my clade when first analyzed). So yes the majority of known R clades from Egypt is the late Z93, the rest are ignored because unrecognizable. I remember how frustrated an Egyptian researcher was when attempting to classify samples from Upper Egypt, which most turned out to be unidentifiable R!

    "I am not saying that all basal R1a could only arrive with Indo-Iranians in West Asia some specific lines likely came later from Europe/Anatolia but very unlikely earlier because ancient dna shows a clear absence of any R1a from West Asia/Anatolia to Siberia until Indo-Iranians."
    We simply don't know. We expect these "basal" clades to have arrived early on and constituted the same proportion they do today, so not a replacement event by any chance. I haven't seen any Egyptian NGS yet dating back to when these migration events are supposed to have happened ( predynastic/old kingdom), although we have old and interesting cranial analyses from this date. All mummies examined so far date back to the New Kingdom onwards (Abu Sir), and only one from the Middle Kingdom ( which turned out to be my own mtDNA, a U5b2b5). So it is too early to make any judgment yet.

    If you consider
    https://www.nature.com/articles/ejhg201450
    With its extensive sampling, you will find only two potential R1a1b. One would cluster with YP1276 (Belarus et al on Yfull) and the other with the Russian from Kabardia under Y12636. The TMRCA of the current Egyptian branch and the Russian is upwards of 7000 bpy ( more changes are forthcoming, since the Russian is not Y12636》BY105614). This diversity and old separation cannot be explained by ' oh they moved along together with Z93 later in history or of course they came later from Europe or Anatolia'. Find me similar branches in Europe and Anatolia with closer origin in time and I may believe you! I don't want to prolong, but there are clearly different sub-clades that populated the Near East and Europe. Very clear to the diligent student.

    The branches have been under-studied, so the current interpretation cannot explain the data.

    One final point: This type of attitude stifles the study of these clades. Why would anyone seek to understand their history if you seem to have all the answers, informed by your Z93 clade? No wonder they're neglected in Europe as well.

    We will be sharing more here:
    https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r1arelics/about

    Cheers,
    [/QUOTE]

    So far the only ancient basal R1a outside East Europe is from Andronovo/Indo-Iranians and as long we do not find earlier basal R1a in West Asia or Central Asia there is little reason to believe that any basal R1a existed in the region and was spread by some kind of Pre-Indo-Iranians. If basal R1a will be found in early Kingdom Egypt, Sumeria or Kura Axe then i will, of course, reconsider my opinion but for now, this is as likely as Z93 from Neolithic Afghanistan and L657 from Neolithic Indo-Gangetic plains. The fact that these basal lines are so extremely rare today makes modern distribution especially a very weak argument for a Neolithic/EBA entrance into West Asia

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  11. #26
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    I admire your fixation on ancient DNA ( the hardest to come by due to preservation issues and scarcity of research) so I assume you will remain in your belief for a long time, as we compile more elaborate clearly distinguishable geographical sub-clades (pretty much how unbiased research is supposed to be conducted). To deny them is to willfully choose not to see the obvious. Even the idea of pre-Indo-European migration is so Z93 centered, seeing the past through a more recent event.

    You obviously don't consider SA0613 Caucasus, ignoring where the other ancient YP1272's were found ( Estonia and Karelia) . Unless you find it in Mesopotamia, you won't believe! SA0613 is the southernmost ancient R1a1b found thus far.

    Again we're open to the facts wherever they lead us, whatever they are. Yet we're not willfully blind.

    Cheers,
    εὐλογημένος ὁ λαός μου ὁ ἐν Αἰγύπτῳ
    Efesmamat enje Pa Laos phé etqen Khémi

    aDNA- Closest Populations
    Paleo DNA
    YORK 3DRIF-26
    British-Roman @ 3.74757
    South Levant Bronze Age
    Levant_BA @ 7.687333

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  13. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theramster View Post
    I admire your fixation on ancient DNA ( the hardest to come by due to preservation issues and scarcity of research) so I assume you will remain in your belief for a long time, as we compile more elaborate clearly distinguishable geographical sub-clades (pretty much how unbiased research is supposed to be conducted). To deny them is to willfully choose not to see the obvious. Even the idea of pre-Indo-European migration is so Z93 centered, seeing the past through a more recent event.

    You obviously don't consider SA0613 Caucasus, ignoring where the other ancient YP1272's were found ( Estonia and Karelia) . Unless you find it in Mesopotamia, you won't believe! SA0613 is the southernmost ancient R1a1b found thus far.

    Again we're open to the facts wherever they lead us, whatever they are. Yet we're not willfully blind.

    Cheers,
    The last time i looked at the map Estonia and Karelia was in East Europe and not in West Asia. SA0613 is not from the Caucasus and got his lineage from the steppe, where he also died.

    Yeah only looking at modern DNA we got such facts like R1b originating in North Africa, R1a originating in India and Y-DNA N in Neolithic Karelia but like various times mentioned ancient people migrated and often replaced other groups so Y-DNA distribution could change dramatically almost every century. Especially lines which are rare and have a wide geographic spread should not be assumed to have a very ancient origin in the same regions.

    I am not 100% excluding R1a somehow arrived in the Neolithic in West Asia but using occams razor this is not the most likely scenario and Indo-Iranian migrations, Hellenistic/Roman Era migrations from Europe/Anatolia or even recent medieval migrations are far more likely than demographically tiny EHG/Progres types with R1a making their way into West Asia and somehow being invisible in ancient DNA so far.

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  15. #28
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    Your analogy is false.
    Noone claimed that R1a-YP1272 originated where it has dispersed. Yet the pattern of dispersal is telling, especially when the order of separation is very ancient and when particular modern geographical clades cluster together. It is pointless to discuss what you're not willing to learn.

    The weird myopic dichotomy of Eastern Europe/Asia with no nuances or the very basic use of maps and directions (North/South-East/West). Karelia and Estonia are not Ukraine, and neither is the Caucasus. There is an indication of north-south migration predating your celebrated event. I suggest you get a map, place the ancient YP1272 ( start with M459* in Ukraine). Then place all modern YP1272 with their clusters( you probably don't know any of them - there are 18 so far) on the map, check their MRCA. Any rational person can make an informed initial impression.

    Cheers,
    εὐλογημένος ὁ λαός μου ὁ ἐν Αἰγύπτῳ
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  17. #29
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    .
    "
    I am not 100% excluding R1a somehow arrived in the Neolithic in West Asia but using occams razor this is not the most likely scenario and Indo-Iranian migrations, Hellenistic/Roman Era migrations from Europe/Anatolia or even recent medieval migrations are far more likely than demographically tiny EHG/Progres types with R1a making their way into West Asia and somehow being invisible in ancient DNA so far.[/QUOTE]

    Noone talked about the Neolithic ( obviously Bronze age is the most likely period of migration). You simply voice unsubstantiated claims. Unless you provide any proof modern or ancient, you're simply making stories up to deny the obvious. At this point, the conversation has gotten so ridiculous, amounting to ' Anything could have happened except what I dislike"!
    εὐλογημένος ὁ λαός μου ὁ ἐν Αἰγύπτῳ
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    aDNA- Closest Populations
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  19. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmountains View Post
    .

    I am not 100% excluding R1a somehow arrived in the Neolithic in West Asia but using occams razor this is not the most likely scenario and Indo-Iranian migrations, Hellenistic/Roman Era migrations from Europe/Anatolia or even recent medieval migrations are far more likely than demographically tiny EHG/Progres types with R1a making their way into West Asia and somehow being invisible in ancient DNA so far.
    Occam's razor instructs you to select the simplest explanation, not the simplest no-explanation. Your theory doesn't explain the data. You think I haven't tried your explanation before?! Yes, given the state of current scholarship it is the simplest and easiest no-explanation. The simplest explanation is successive migration from the Steppes into Europe and the Near East, due to some environmental pressures, beginning from the Bronze Age. The environmental pressures would decide the extent of the migration. Rather than one late event being the simplest explanation, it would be one type of movement at differing magnitude like sea waves! Some waves turned out to be replacement episodes, others not. Quite simple.

    Cheers,
    εὐλογημένος ὁ λαός μου ὁ ἐν Αἰγύπτῳ
    Efesmamat enje Pa Laos phé etqen Khémi

    aDNA- Closest Populations
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    Levant_BA @ 7.687333

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