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Thread: R-YP4141 (R1a2) rising from the ashes! New branches discovered!

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theramster View Post
    Your analogy is false.
    Noone claimed that R1a-YP1272 originated where it has dispersed. Yet the pattern of dispersal is telling, especially when the order of separation is very ancient and when particular modern geographical clades cluster together. It is pointless to discuss what you're not willing to learn.

    The weird myopic dichotomy of Eastern Europe/Asia with no nuances or the very basic use of maps and directions (North/South-East/West). Karelia and Estonia are not Ukraine, and neither is the Caucasus. There is an indication of north-south migration predating your celebrated event. I suggest you get a map, place the ancient YP1272 ( start with M459* in Ukraine). Then place all modern YP1272 with their clusters( you probably don't know any of them - there are 18 so far) on the map, check their MRCA. Any rational person can make an informed initial impression.

    Cheers,
    Karelia and Estonia are even more northeast than Ukraine so I don't understand how basal R1a in Karelia and Estonia is pointing to some old pre-Indo-Iranian presence of R1a in West Asia. There is not even any archaeological or historical link between these regions especially not before Indo-Iranians.

    Ancient DNA is the only thing that can prove or disprove theories here and modern DNA is mostly irrelevant for tracing the migration of rare clade else basal R1b or R1a should be present in pre-Columbian America because it will be most diverse there today.

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  3. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmountains View Post
    Karelia and Estonia are even more northeast than Ukraine so I don't understand how basal R1a in Karelia and Estonia is pointing to some old pre-Indo-Iranian presence of R1a in West Asia.
    I do not disagree with the gist of your argument, but I would like to point out that Estonia is located far north of the western end of Ukraine, beyond Belarus, Lithuania, and Latvia. Karelia is located at a great distance to the north of central Ukraine. Therefore, your statement that "Karelia and Estonia are even more northeast than Ukraine" is geographically incorrect; they are rather north (and perhaps, at least in the case of Estonia, one might say northwest) of Ukraine.

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  5. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ebizur View Post
    I do not disagree with the gist of your argument, but I would like to point out that Estonia is located far north of the western end of Ukraine, beyond Belarus, Lithuania, and Latvia. Karelia is located at a great distance to the north of central Ukraine. Therefore, your statement that "Karelia and Estonia are even more northeast than Ukraine" is geographically incorrect; they are rather north (and perhaps, at least in the case of Estonia, one might say northwest) of Ukraine.
    That is really not the point and from a archeological and genetically point of view Estonia and especially Karelia was part of northeast Europe (strong EHG shift of HGs, Comb Ceramic) in pre-historical and historical times

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  7. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmountains View Post
    That is really not the point and from a archeological and genetically point of view Estonia was shifted towards northeast Europe (strong EHG shift of HGs, Comb Ceramic)
    Did you read the first clause of my comment?

  8. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ebizur View Post
    Did you read the first sentence of my comment?
    Yeah and it is an irrelevant point to discuss if Estonia or even Karelia is geographically north or northeast of Ukraine because of few hundred miles. That was not the point here and I am aware of the geography. Estonia is often classified as northeast European country unlike Ukraine which is classified just as East European.

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  10. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmountains View Post
    Yeah and it is an irrelevant point to discuss if Estonia is geographically north or northeast of Ukraine. That was not the point here and I am aware of the geography.
    In that case, I think it would be preferable if you would write in a manner that makes it clear that you are aware of geography.

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  12. #37
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    Tunisia
    I think that PES001 sample (the oldest R1a sample) Cleary indicates that YP1272 was a prominent EHG lineage from North West russia but it's rarity combined with it's geographic distribution make difficult to link this branche to any known population or civilization
    Last edited by Darko; 07-23-2021 at 12:17 AM.

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  14. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheAnatolian View Post
    ...my line which is exclusively concentrated in Eastern Anatolia, Caucasus and Mesopotamia. We are yet to find any link to Central or Eastern Iran, let alone India or Central Asia.
    I was struck by this statement and the map and would like to bring up what I believe may be a possible analogue to your R-FT1864/Y45596. It is R-CTS6, primarily relevant to me for having the largest known Ashkenazi lineage downstream- R-Y2619- which makes up just under 8% of all Ashkenazi male lines. Beyond this though, it is an intriguing lineage; same TMRCA as yours (c. 2800 ybp), with a similar "Eastern Anatolia, Caucasus and Mesopotamia" spread, just with some representation from SE Iran with the two samples from Kerman province. It's also similarly in a relatively opaque Steppe-derived context, with R-F1345's MRCA probably (IMO) still being present on the steppe c. 1800 BCE.

    I going to wager a guess and say that Central, Eastern, and Southern Iran are extremely undersampled and their absence here is not telling of anything specific. It'd take a study like the Turkish WGS one before we could make a solid argument-by-absence.

    Best of luck in your research into your clade!
     
    My avatar is paleoart of a Neanderthal child by Tom Björklund, check him out: Hidden Content

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  16. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmountains View Post
    That is really not the point and from a archeological and genetically point of view Estonia and especially Karelia was part of northeast Europe (strong EHG shift of HGs, Comb Ceramic) in pre-historical and historical times
    It is exactly the point with rational discourse. You keep making these mistakes in locations and classifications. I don't know what argument you're making exactly. It is clear others take your responses seriously as if somehow you're having an argument with me, which you aren't:

    1. You defend the impossibility of migration in the neolithic. We were addressing bronze age.
    2. You focus R1a in Asia. We were addressing a progressive movement to the South, reaching the Caucasus at 3000 BC for a particular clade. Take your Asia R1a focus to another thread.
    3. You got the geography of Karelia and Estonia wrong, where YP1272 seemed to have been located 5000 BC and twice 3000BC respectively.
    4. You ignore information like ancient geographic clusters. These subclades could not just cluster together geographically, unless they were dispersed in these locations from the beginning. They had agency, meaning they were not part of another sub-clade's later movement, otherwise what you're promoting would be statistically impossible.
    5. You mix up dispersal with origin. Ancient migration and origination. You discredit geographic clusters with no evidence. SmartSelect_20210722-230146_Samsung Internet.jpg
    Last edited by Administrator; 08-01-2021 at 08:57 PM. Reason: Edited following administrative review
    εὐλογημένος ὁ λαός μου ὁ ἐν Αἰγύπτῳ
    Efesmamat enje Pa Laos phé etqen Khémi

    aDNA- Closest Populations
    Paleo DNA
    YORK 3DRIF-26
    British-Roman @ 3.74757
    South Levant Bronze Age
    Levant_BA @ 7.687333

  17. #40
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    He would have inquired about SNP dating and ancient samples. He would have seen where YP1272 was anciently spotted or is presently located and its clusters. Finally he could present us with a rebuttal why the Maycop YP1272 SA6013 couldn't have any Asian interaction, or even possible migration of similar individuals in the Bronze age on SmartSelect_20210722-234920_Samsung Internet.jpg

    https://www.degruyter.com/document/d...2012-0001/html
    SmartSelect_20210722-235405_ezPDF Reader.jpg
    Last edited by Administrator; 08-01-2021 at 08:58 PM. Reason: Edited following administrative review
    εὐλογημένος ὁ λαός μου ὁ ἐν Αἰγύπτῳ
    Efesmamat enje Pa Laos phé etqen Khémi

    aDNA- Closest Populations
    Paleo DNA
    YORK 3DRIF-26
    British-Roman @ 3.74757
    South Levant Bronze Age
    Levant_BA @ 7.687333

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