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Thread: Who were the Sea Peoples?

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    Fascinating discussion. I just wanted to share this article out of interest - it identifies introgression from a 'Sardinian-like' population at some point during the ethnogenesis of modern-day Armenians. I've seen some social media commentators link this signal to Sea Peoples who colonised/settle the Armenian Highlands. I'm limited in my knowledge of this topic/period of history, but I thought it sounded interesting and wanted to share given the focus of this thread. If more learned members have any observations, I'd be very interested to hear them!

    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1...781v1.full.pdf

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    Quote Originally Posted by Andrewid View Post
    Thanks for this explanation Agamemnon! Anatolia is a huge place, presumably we are talking about Aegean Anatolia and southwest Anatolian coast as being the origins of some of the motley crew called Sea Peoples? What's your position on this, given the evidence so far? Also, some of these maps of linguistic areas can be a little simplistic. The area in the south of Cyprus, which are not shaded as Arcado-Cypriot, equate to Phoenician in the southeast (Kition), and so-called Eteocypriot in the south (Amathus). Arcado-Cypriot was spoken everwhere of course, whatever the ruling elites in Kition or Amathus spoke. Likewise pre-Greek Cypriot languages, as well as Phoenician, will have been spoken outside of the strict confines of the map description too.

    Historians often separate the arrival of the Sea People and the Mycenaeans in Cyprus, when as Agamemnon rightly says, they were actually part of the same process in the LBA throughout the region. Apart from a few ruling elite flip flops (in say Idalion, and even Salamis), it is remarkable that it was the Mycenaeans that left there linguistic and cultural stamp in Cyprus. My own hunch is much of the Anatolian element already existed on the island prior to the arrival of the Mycenaeans etc. Decipherment of Eteocypriot will provide us with some evidence to support or refute this as one of the experts on the matter, Philippa Steele has told me. So the genetic imprint of the Aegean migrants may well have added to an existing Anatolian palimpsest. That pre-existing Anatolian population may have been related to Anatolians further east in Cilicia etc. What are your views on this Agamemnon?

    We should also never forget that during the so-called Greek 'Dark Ages', written Greek did survive: expressed in Cyprus via Aegean-derived Cypriot syllabary; filling the gap of the 'missing' centuries up to the time of Archaic Greece.

    The EteoCypriot finds at Amathus (yet to be deciphered) were also written in Cypriot syllabary.

    This is Greek in Cypriot syllabary:

     



    And Amathusian (Eteocypriot):

     



    Some very useful books on ancient Cypriot languages and scripts for those interested:

    https://www.google.co.uk/books/editi...DwAAQBAJ?hl=en

    https://www.google.co.uk/books/editi...zQEACAAJ?hl=en
    I fully second your point on the simplistic nature of linguistic maps such as the one I posted, to be sure there is no such thing as a perfect map, another flaw as far as I can tell is how the spread of Greek in Southern Italy by the 6th century BCE is underestimated (while simultaneously overestimating the Doric Greek's popularity in Cyrenaica). To answer your first question, I think the Anatolian background of some of the Sea Peoples can be narrowed down to two areas, namely being Lycia and Lydia (possibly including the Troad as well), within the Ancient Greek dialect continuum Pamphylian and Aeolic share several important isoglosses with Arcadocypriot and a possible way of accounting for the distribution of all three (plus Ionic) would be to view them as Bronze Age leftovers that were pushed from the Greek mainland deep into the Aegean and Eastern Mediterranean by the incoming Dorians (there are however some flaws with this model, but it makes great sense), another element which supports a Lydian background would be the plausibility of Lydian etymologies for some of the Philistine personal names and loanwords in Hebrew. Last but not least, the tradition surrounding the Iliad also points in the direction of a combined Greek-Lydian background, which is to be placed in the context of Ahhiyawa (Achaean) activity around Miletus, it is especially noteworthy that the Greeks are one of the very few peoples who seem to have retained a positive image of the LBA collapse and the subsequent period in their collective memory, which is unlikely to be a coincidence.

    I concur with you as far as the Anatolian component in Cyprus is of concern, in fact this might be problematic as it might mean that distinguishing BA Cypriots from the neighbouring BA Anatolians will be an arduous task. In fact not only was the Anatolian component already present, to a large extent the Aegean one must have been partially present as well, the Mycenaeans were no strangers to Cyprus or indeed much of the Levant. As you said tough, much of this rests on the decipherment of the Cypro-Minoan script, which should settle the debate, we should however expect some degree of linguistic diversity (the presence of Arcadocypriot Greek's ancestor and Anatolian is totally expected, there might also be at least one non-IE language, as in Crete).

    Quote Originally Posted by CopperAxe View Post
    A Q for Agemennon:

    Would Phoenician Shardan etymologically be related to Egyptian Sherden? There is the theory that peoples from Western Anatolia migrated to Sardinia after the LBA collapse (and bringing the toponym with them) but most archaeologists dealing with the Nuragic civilization tend to refute that notion.

    Which brings me to the second point, was Sardis already in existence as a city or is there any evidence for a similar toponym in the region prior or during the era of the sea peoples? I know its the iron age capital of Lydia, but I have no idea what the city/soon-to-be-city was called in the bronze age. Which by the way is a fitting topic given your profile picture
    The Phoenician šrdn (vocalised /sardan/) is possibly a loanword from the pre-/non-IE language spoken in Sardinia, while there indeed is a š-r-d root in Phoenician (and more generally Canaanite) proposing such an etymology for the toponym would be hazardous and not exactly convincing. It's also unlikely to be etymologically related to the Sherden/Shardana of Egyptian (and Ugaritic) sources, which is why the theories positing a link between this group and Sardinia via a migration either to or from the island fails on closer inspection. We should not expect to see Nuragic-like individuals show up in the LBA Near East, nor East Mediterranean individuals in LBA Sardinia.

    Sardis is usually identified with the city of Hyde in the Iliad, what makes the theory attractive is that this is more or less the area where Ahhiyawa activity is documented in the Tawagalawa letter, one possibility is that the Sherden gave their name to that place.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cynic View Post
    Thanks for the information. A little clarification, when you say “pull down the pillars” of Bronze Age civilization, do you mean tearing down or laying them down? Because I don’t see understand these guys would be interested in tearing down Bronze Age society if they themselves maintained a written alphabet for as long as they did in Cyprus.

    Secondly, would you say that most or all of the Greek ancestry in the Levant comes from this late Mycenaean period? Or was there more to follow.
    I mean it quite literally, the Sea Peoples are largely responsible for the disappearance of the Bronze Age world, in my view they used Cyprus' advantageous location to vigorously lay waste to the Bronze Age system. Their use of the Cypro-Minoan script shows that they did not migrate directly from Greece, in which case they possibly would have remained illiterate like the rest of Greece between the 12th and 8th centuries BCE, but rather stopped in Cyprus on the way (which, as I said earlier, was the last stronghold of the linear scripts in the Aegean). While these people were the main actor which helped bring about the LBA collapse, they very much were a product of that same Bronze Age world, in a sense they were only handing the "coup de grâce", as the BA system was very unstable and imploding from within by the 14th century at least (as seen through the prism of the Amarna archives). And this is what makes this period interesting, after this tumultuous and largely unknown period, where the complete lack of sources leaves us in the dark and contrasts greatly with the preceding wealth of information during the Bronze Age, we see that the same people have "reinvented" themselves so to speak, and the memories of this period are even preserved in later epics such as the Iliad which for all intents and purposes seem to be much more reliable than some would have us believe. I mentioned above how the Greeks were one of the few peoples who preserved fond memories of that period (as seen in the Iliad), another people that appeared at the same time and preserved a positive outlook on this period in their collective memory are the Israelites. I'm not going to get into how the Iliad and the Hebrew Bible are in many ways parallel in terms of how they relate to authentic recollections from the BA, what I would like to point out however is that in a sense the later Greek world of Classical Antiquity is a "reinvention" or even a "reformulation" of the Mycenaean one much like Iron Age Israel is largely a "reinvention" of BA Canaan (we can speak of near-complete continuity for the Phoenician city-states though), it is this clash between continuity and discontinuity as well as the veil of uncertainty which hangs over the LBA collapse and subsequent "Dark Age" which makes this topic so interesting.

    As for your second question, I think that the Greek ancestry in the Levant became more of a permanent feature starting from the Achaemenid or Iron III period, as seen in ancient the results from Beirut, the LBA-EIA migration of the Sea Peoples seems to have been more of a trickling and was restricted to specific areas of the Levant (the coastal plain of Israel, some parts of the Syrian coast) and eventually ended up being swallowed up by more powerful neighbours (Syro-Hittite states in Syria and Phoenicians then Judahites in Israel).
    Last edited by Agamemnon; 07-23-2021 at 06:33 PM.
    מכורותיך ומולדותיך מארץ הכנעני אביך האמורי ואמך חתית
    יחזקאל פרק טז ג-


    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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  5. #23
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    Sure looks to be the case!

    Target: Lebanese_Christian_Maronite
    Distance: 1.2189% / 0.01218877
    77.2 Levant_Beirut_IAIII
    22.8 Greek_Crete

    Target: Lebanese_Christian_Greek_Orthodox
    Distance: 1.0897% / 0.01089661
    79.8 Levant_Beirut_IAIII
    20.2 Greek_Crete

    Target: Lebanese_Christian
    Distance: 1.1275% / 0.01127485
    79.2 Levant_Beirut_IAIII
    20.8 Greek_Crete

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    I wouldn't use Crete as a sample because there is more of an overlap between that and the Levantine one. I picked Thessaly as a better source with less over lap

    Target: Dad_scaled
    Distance: 3.0592% / 0.03059190
    87.0 Levant_Beirut_IAIII
    13.0 Greek_Thessaly

    Target: Lebanese_Various_Christian_Achrafieh_Beirut
    Distance: 1.7188% / 0.01718799
    93.0 Levant_Beirut_IAIII
    7.0 Greek_Thessaly

    Target: Lebanese_Maronite_Christian_Zgharta-Ehden
    Distance: 1.8391% / 0.01839118
    91.6 Levant_Beirut_IAIII
    8.4 Greek_Thessaly

    Target: Lebanese_Christian
    Distance: 1.7758% / 0.01775846
    92.2 Levant_Beirut_IAIII
    7.8 Greek_Thessaly

    I'm using averages from another thread that apparently are more accurate than the ones on G25. Think the results give a truer picture. Of course the Greek input later down in time in my opinion came from Greco Anatolia and/or Cyprus. We get a better fit with Greco Anatolia

    Target: Dad_scaled
    Distance: 2.7060% / 0.02705975
    65.0 Levant_Beirut_IAIII
    35.0 Greek_Central_Anatolia

    Target: Lebanese_Various_Christian_Achrafieh_Beirut
    Distance: 1.3014% / 0.01301377
    76.6 Levant_Beirut_IAIII
    23.4 Greek_Central_Anatolia

    Target: Lebanese_Maronite_Christian_Zgharta-Ehden
    Distance: 1.4051% / 0.01405119
    74.0 Levant_Beirut_IAIII
    26.0 Greek_Central_Anatolia

    Target: Lebanese_Christian
    Distance: 1.5948% / 0.01594831
    79.8 Levant_Beirut_IAIII
    20.2 Greek_Central_Anatolia

    This is probably a more accurate depiction of modern coastal Leavntines.

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    Nuragic ceramics of common use, not imported, had been found at Kokkinoremons in Cyprus, a site attributed to the Sea Peoples.
    I'm not against an Anatolia origin of the Sherden and other Sea Peoples but a Nuragic origin should not be discarded for the moment IMO only aDNA can solve the question
    Last edited by Reozek; 07-24-2021 at 01:19 AM.

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    Beirut_IAIII already has quite a substantial amount of Aegean ancestry, up to 25% Mycenaean-like for some of the samples, as can be seen on the following PCA:

     


    It would also be better to obtain a model using ancients only, something along the lines of the following might work better:

    Code:
    Target: Lebanese_Christian_Maronite
    Distance: 1.1711% / 0.01171101
    57.2	Levant_Beirut_IAII
    22.8	IRN_Hajji_Firuz_IA
    20.0	Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
    
    
    Target: Lebanese_Christian_Greek_Orthodox
    Distance: 1.2175% / 0.01217493
    58.2	Levant_Beirut_IAII
    21.6	IRN_Hajji_Firuz_IA
    20.2	Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
    
    
    Target: Lebanese_Christian
    Distance: 1.4448% / 0.01444756
    60.2	Levant_Beirut_IAII
    20.0	Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
    19.8	IRN_Hajji_Firuz_IA
    It's quite plausible that Hajji_Firuz embodies some sort of Mesopotamian ancestry, it should come down once the proper samples become available.
    מכורותיך ומולדותיך מארץ הכנעני אביך האמורי ואמך חתית
    יחזקאל פרק טז ג-


    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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  13. #27
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    I figured as much because when I tried modelling them with IAII first, they were scoring very high(pushing 40%) amounts of Greek islander ancestry. Going piece by piece now.

    Target: Levant_Beirut_IAIII
    Distance: 1.3101% / 0.01310074
    75.8 Levant_Beirut_IAII
    19.8 GRC_Mycenaean
    4.4 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_IA

    Target: Lebanese_Christian_Maronite
    Distance: 0.5709% / 0.00570881
    73.2 Levant_Beirut_IAIII
    17.0 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_IA
    9.8 ITA_Rome_Imperial

    Target: Lebanese_Christian_Greek_Orthodox
    Distance: 0.4594% / 0.00459358
    74.8 Levant_Beirut_IAIII
    14.4 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_IA
    10.8 ITA_Rome_Imperial

    Target: Lebanese_Christian
    Distance: 0.9448% / 0.00944778
    75.2 Levant_Beirut_IAIII
    13.4 ITA_Rome_Imperial
    11.4 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_IA

    I took the 4 most Greek Islander(Dodecanese) shifted Roman Imperial samples(115,81,40,39) to build the model for modern Lebanese Christians. Hajji Firuz IA could represent real Mesopotamian or more easterly ancestry but it could also just be overfitting in my model and yours. A paper that I previously posted claimed that there was a wave of South-Central Asian ancestry which arrived in the Levant around the Hellenistic period. Something Kalash like perhaps...

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    I've just found this https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full...4.2020.1758329

    In 2019 Nuragic bowls had been discovered in the necropolis of Hala Sultan Tekke, Cyprus. A good genetic analysis of the deceased, if possible, would be very interesting

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    Don't we also have a related Luwian migration into the future Syrio-Hittite states?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reozek View Post
    I've just found this https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full...4.2020.1758329

    In 2019 Nuragic bowls had been discovered in the necropolis of Hala Sultan Tekke, Cyprus. A good genetic analysis of the deceased, if possible, would be very interesting
    The Swedish Cyprus expedition has actually made several extraordinary finds in tombs near Hala Sultan Tekke. Many of the discovered artefacts are Mycenaean imports from Greece, like this chariot krater with sword-wielding men from around 1350BCE. It's the only complete vessel of its kind so far discovered anywhere.

     


    The sheer quantity of Mycenaean imports, discovered by the Swedish team, dating back to 1500BCE, display very close trading links between Cyprus & Greece & Crete right at the outset of the Late Bronze Age. Links probably started earlier. Mycenaean Greeks were clearly fully aware of Cyprus before their first settlements from around 1200BCE. They would have been especially aware of Cyprus' rich copper resources.

    Excavations on the Hala Sultan tombs, first discovered in 2017, started a year later. It’s still work in progress. The Swedish Söderberg Expedition, as it is called, is attached to the University of Gothenburg and led by Peter Fischer and Theresa Bürge.

    The Swedes have a very long tradition of archaeological excavations on the island. One of most important was from 1927-31, led by Einar Gjerstad. Many of the finds are kept at the Medelhavsmuseet Stockholm. Univ of Gothenburg’s archaeological expedition is just the latest incarnation of Swedish interest. It has already had ten seasons in Cyprus, including a limited one during Covid-hit 2020. The Swedish archaeologists are also collaborating with the Cyprus Institute’s ‘Face to Face- Meet An Ancient Cypriot’ project.

    The team has also been uncovering evidence of the trading links between Cyprus and Sardinia and our Sea People friends, the Sherden. Finds include tableware with clear links to Nuragic Sardinia from 13thc BCE.

     


    Cyprus was clearly an important trading hub well before the Late Bronze Age collapse. The Hala Sultan city, located on and near Larnaca's salt lake, was one of largest in Bronze Age Med & linked trading networks from the Western Mediterranean, all the way to Afghanistan. We know this because the Swedish team has discovered lapis lazuli brought in from south central Asia! What the city was actually called we don't know- it's named after the mosque by the salt lake.

    Sardinians may even have settled (and not merely traded) in the Hala Sultan city, and evidence suggests they were later present in nearby Kition, which seemed to replace the harbour city when it silted up. What's fascinating is that in Kition, we know that the Sardinians had an official interpretator. A post that indicates a significant presence.

    Nuragic pottery has also been found at Pyla Kokkinokremos (as Reozek says), to the northeast of Larnaca. Cypriot artefacts have also been found in Sardinia. Did some Sardinians also arrive during the LBA collapse migrations? Are they the Sherden? As Agamemnon says, there isn't sufficient evidence to conclusively claim that they are from Sardinia.

    The Sardinian finds have led Cypriot archaeologist, Vassos Karageorghis, to identify the Nuragic Sardinians with the Sherden Sea People. According to Karageorghis, the Sherden first arrived in Crete and from there they joined the Cretans in an eastward expedition to Cyprus. (Sir Arthur Evans, btw, was convinced that there was a Minoan 'colony' on Cyprus. No direct evidence so far, though we are still trying to establish how the Aegean scripts arrived and were adopted in Cyprus).

    This is a useful read on the Sherden:

    https://www.yalehistoricalreview.org...-1300-900-bce/

    This is particularly interesting from the report:

    "The existence of a network between Sardinia and the Eastern Mediterranean was suggested by the archeologist Birgitta Hallager with her discovery of Mycenaean pottery—in the traditional style of the Late Bronze Age—on the island of Sardinia. A few years later, the academic Joseph Shaw uncovered Sardinian pottery in southern Crete, indicating a reciprocal relationship between the two regions. The archeologist Margaret Guido corroborated these hypotheses with her discovery of oxhide ingots inscribed with Cypro-Minoan markings found inside native Nuraghe establishments in Sardinia. She then connected her findings to similar oxhide ingots previously discovered in Crete."

    Other archaeologists are inverting the relationship between Sardinia and the Sherden. Again from the above report: " Sandars...proposes that the Sherden are indigenous to the northern Syria region; she also theorizes that the Sherden left Ugarit following the city’s devastation in the 12th century BCE, took refuge in Cyprus, and then migrated to Sardinia where they provided the island with its name." The writer rejects this: "Even if the Sherden did originate in Syria, the suggestion that they migrated from Ugarit to Cyprus, then to Sardinia, and then again back to Egypt, is no more than an attempt to correlate the ingot god and the Ugarit stela to Sherden visual historiography. Sandars does not explain how a mass migration of the Sherden then returned to terrorize the Eastern Mediterranean in coordination with other raiding groups and polities. Sandars’ argument thus relies on implausible assumptions."

    Here is a Sherden-like statue found in the Engomi valley, Cyprus.

     


    Going back to the tombs found near Hala Sultan Tekke, I understand that the Swedish expedition is going to perform dental analysis on the human remains, so that the diet of the individuals can be determined. This would establish if they were local or settlers from further afield. It seems unlikely to me that we won't also be seeing the results from aDNA analysis.
    Last edited by Andrewid; 07-24-2021 at 12:43 PM.

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