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Thread: E-S7461 Question

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bane View Post
    And how do you explain the Sardinian who is E-S2978* ?
    What does the Sardinian have to do with my post above?
    I'm not really getting your point here, the Laconian forms a clade with a sample who hasn't put details as of yet, not the Sardinian. Nor the Sardinian alone gives credibility to the idea that this clade is of Doric Greek origin. There was no notable ancient Greek presence in Sardinia.
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  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspar View Post
    What does the Sardinian have to do with my post above?
    I'm not really getting your point here, the Laconian forms a clade with a sample who hasn't put details as of yet, not the Sardinian. Nor the Sardinian alone gives credibility to the idea that this clade is of Doric Greek origin. There was no notable ancient Greek presence in Sardinia.

    Ok. so it seems you don't have an explanation.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bane View Post
    And how do you explain the Sardinian who is E-S2978* ?
    The Sardinian is from Cagliari and there was a huge scientific sample taken from there. For some reason the Cagliari male population seems to be very diverse and continental. I too have so far identified no single explanation or historical event for that pattern, but it seems that a lot of continental migrants came to the town, and this included a lot of E-V13 carriers, but also others, especially various subclades of R1b and others. Like if you check even for the Germanic R-U106, you get 4 hits from Cagliari:
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-U106/

    One case is curious because he has a direct match from Germany:
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y36974/

    And its migration period timing!

    Sweden another one:
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-S22294/

    Whether any of this being connected, whether its about the Early Iron Age epansion of E-V13 or a later historical event, I can't tell for sure yet. But I wouldn't read too much into it at this point, because Cagliari being rather oversampled and so diverse. A good question is of course how different clades of E-V13 came to Italy as a whole and its different regions, probably at different times and with different people.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    The Sardinian is from Cagliari and there was a huge scientific sample taken from there. For some reason the Cagliari male population seems to be very diverse and continental. I too have so far identified no single explanation or historical event for that pattern, but it seems that a lot of continental migrants came to the town, and this included a lot of E-V13 carriers, but also others, especially various subclades of R1b and others. Like if you check even for the Germanic R-U106, you get 4 hits from Cagliari:
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-U106/

    One case is curious because he has a direct match from Germany:
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y36974/

    And its migration period timing!

    Sweden another one:
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-S22294/

    Whether any of this being connected, whether its about the Early Iron Age epansion of E-V13 or a later historical event, I can't tell for sure yet. But I wouldn't read too much into it at this point, because Cagliari being rather oversampled and so diverse. A good question is of course how different clades of E-V13 came to Italy as a whole and its different regions, probably at different times and with different people.
    If I’m not mistaken Vandals held Cagliari, vandals also passed through the Balkans and could have picked up some
    Getic clades from there. It would be interesting to know if E-V13 spread with Goths as well.

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  6. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scythoslav View Post
    If I’m not mistaken Vandals held Cagliari, vandals also passed through the Balkans and could have picked up some
    Getic clades from there. It would be interesting to know if E-V13 spread with Goths as well.
    Yes it did, we know Goths had some E-V13 carriers, we just don't know for sure where exactly they picked them up, probably not just at one place. And its not just Getic clades, but generally Urnfield related cultural groups of Central and Eastern Central Europe from Poland, Bohemia-Moravia, Slovakia, Pannonia etc. which they seem to have picked up. I too think that a part of the variation in Cagliari came with the Vandals, but how much we don't know. There are still a lot of unknowns other than that E-V13 was fairly widespread in the Iron Age in CEE and reached Celts occasionally. However, it is unlikely that most of the E-V13 came to Cagliari with the Vandals, because it seems quite basal in the associated clades and probably came in earlier with another group of people - for the most part. But we can't know right now.

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  8. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bane View Post
    Ok. so it seems you don't have an explanation.
    There is no sense in what you've written.
    Make yourself more clear, what's up with the Sardinian?
    How I'm supposed to give you an explanation if I have no idea why you are bringing that Sardinian sample in the first place?
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  9. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspar View Post
    There is no sense in what you've written.
    Make yourself more clear, what's up with the Sardinian?
    How I'm supposed to give you an explanation if I have no idea why you are bringing that Sardinian sample in the first place?

    In my opinion hypothesis which deals with a single element of a "big picture" is not a sound hypothesis. That is how I see things "in genere".
    If I correctly understood you, you suggest vast majority of todays E-V13 clade in Greece was not present in Greece before common era? Correct me if I'm wrong.
    This conclusion of yours is not taking all the information we have even when we talk about single quite deep clade - in this case E-S2978. And there are of course many more E-V13 clades in Greece.
    I'm just saying - I'm not going to follow your strong stance on E-V13 in Greece if you don't provide more answers so that we see the "big picture".

  10. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bane View Post
    In my opinion hypothesis which deals with a single element of a "big picture" is not a sound hypothesis. That is how I see things "in genere".
    If I correctly understood you, you suggest vast majority of todays E-V13 clade in Greece was not present in Greece before common era? Correct me if I'm wrong.
    This conclusion of yours is not taking all the information we have even when we talk about single quite deep clade - in this case E-S2978. And there are of course many more E-V13 clades in Greece.
    I'm just saying - I'm not going to follow your strong stance on E-V13 in Greece if you don't provide more answers so that we see the "big picture".
    And what information do we have so far?
    So far, there is ZERO E-V13 among the Minoans, the MBA and Classical Greeks.
    It's enough just to see the Y tree. Most of the E-V13 subclades in Greece have close cousins further north, connections that is mostly Medieval.
    Of course, you can always argue that what we have so far is not enough to make a final conclusion and I agree with that. But do you know or have anything better?
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     Riverman (07-31-2021)

  12. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspar View Post
    And what information do we have so far?
    So far, there is ZERO E-V13 among the Minoans, the MBA and Classical Greeks.
    It's enough just to see the Y tree. Most of the E-V13 subclades in Greece have close cousins further north, connections that is mostly Medieval.
    Of course, you can always argue that what we have so far is not enough to make a final conclusion and I agree with that. But do you know or have anything better?
    I wonder about the E-V13 clades on the Greek islands all the way down to Crete. I thought its possible that most of the spread started with the Iron Age, with a lot coming down from Thrace in the classical period too, but I assumed some spread with Dorians as well and not the majority being from post-Antiquity.
    Would you say even what we have from the Greek islands so far looks more like being from more recent migrants of Vlach, Albanian and Slavic origin?
    There are really not that many Greeks on YFULL afaik.

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  14. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    I wonder about the E-V13 clades on the Greek islands all the way down to Crete. I thought its possible that most of the spread started with the Iron Age, with a lot coming down from Thrace in the classical period too, but I assumed some spread with Dorians as well and not the majority being from post-Antiquity.
    Would you say even what we have from the Greek islands so far looks more like being from more recent migrants of Vlach, Albanian and Slavic origin?
    There are really not that many Greeks on YFULL afaik.
    Reading Aspar's post above this morning, I thought the same thing but with Sicily. E-V13 is over 8.5% there; are we to assume it's entirely of BA continuity on the island or migration from Italy or the Balkans? Not to mention E-V13 is incredibly diverse in Sicily, with at least over 70 distinct branches. (Source: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....8-Sicily-Y-Dna)

    I'd be really surprised if 0 of those branches were ultimately Greek, considering how Greek-derived Sicily is.
     
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