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Thread: E-S7461 Question

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    I wonder about the E-V13 clades on the Greek islands all the way down to Crete. I thought its possible that most of the spread started with the Iron Age, with a lot coming down from Thrace in the classical period too, but I assumed some spread with Dorians as well and not the majority being from post-Antiquity.
    Would you say even what we have from the Greek islands so far looks more like being from more recent migrants of Vlach, Albanian and Slavic origin?
    There are really not that many Greeks on YFULL afaik.
    Not all of course. Probably this branch have nothing to do with more recent migrations. As for other Islanders, the Greeks unfortunately don't test much. What I remember from some time ago in the FTDNA projects, there was a Cretan(can't remember what clade of E-V13 exactly ATM) forming a clade with a Macedonian, Bulgarian and a Hungarian. Probably Huban knows more about this branch and could be able to tell you TMRCA for example.

    Nevertheless, with the new paper about the IA Daunians, the agony in the seek for an ancient E-V13 continues. From still unofficial informations, we know E-V13 should be strong in Thrace and we also have that IA Scythian from Moldova which cements E-V13 as strongly Eastern Balkan group. I firmly believe E-V13 was especially strong in the Danubian provincials of the Roman Empire. After the collapse of the Danube limes this mostly Romanized population rich in E-V13 fled to other regions in the Empire, mostly Constantinople, the coastal cities, the Greek islands and South Italy. This was the case as was described in the Miracles of St.Demetrius.
    Target: Aspar_scaled
    Distance: 1.9646% / 0.01964602 | ADC: 1x RC
    57.6 Macedonian
    42.4 Greek_Central_Macedonia

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  3. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspar View Post
    there was a Cretan(can't remember what clade of E-V13 exactly ATM) forming a clade with a Macedonian, Bulgarian and a Hungarian. Probably Huban knows more about this branch and could be able to tell you TMRCA for example.
    There is a branch at the FTDNA under E-FGC33614: E-A10158, most likely Bulgarian from a study at YFull belongs to it as no A10158 have uploaded to YFull. E-A10158 has one more SNP, one of its clades is E-BY77647, two more parallel clades in Western Europe. This level has 5 SNPs.

    Branches into
    E-Y60987 Macedonian and Bulgarian sharing 19 SNPs. Also based on distinct STRs to this branch belong 3 Romanians from scientific papers and one Bulgarian.
    E-BY57649 Greek from Crete and Hungarian share just 1 SNP.

    At FTDNA SNP is worth 80-100 years. So I guess E-A10158 has TMRCA of 2900 ybp, E-BY77647 about 2400-2500 ybp, Macedonian and Bulgarian probably around 1000 ybp, while Cretan and Hungarian are around 2300-2400 years apart..

    There are 14 E-A10158 BigY results, nobody has uploaded to YFull. Maybe you can ask this Macedonian and Bulgarian to do so, to determine relation with this Bulgarian who is most likely of that branch, though I don't know his SNPs.


    Quote Originally Posted by Aspar View Post
    Nevertheless, with the new paper about the IA Daunians, the agony in the seek for an ancient E-V13 continues.
    Agony?? This is cause to celebrate not agonize. Expectation that Thracians should make up significant percentage of Illyrians is akin to expecting that Scythians should be mostly R-U106, or that Italics carried R-L1029.. Expansive haplogroups with high degree of demographic explosion tend to have a pretty exclusive meta-ethnic affiliation.. There are obviously strong borders between R-Z93 and R-Z280, between R-U106 and R-U152..

    This coincides with me finding some information about the Albanoi which indicates that in the time of Trajan or Hadrian these people, whatever they were or regardless of them being Illyrian tribe in 2nd century BC, Illyrian they were not..

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  5. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by leorcooper19 View Post
    Reading Aspar's post above this morning, I thought the same thing but with Sicily. E-V13 is over 8.5% there; are we to assume it's entirely of BA continuity on the island or migration from Italy or the Balkans?
    There is no Bronze Age continuity for E-V13 anywhere but in their homeland, because most of their expansion dates to the very Late Bronze Age and Early Iron Age. So no, it can't be Bronze Age continuity on the island of Sicily. I would go as far as to say "no way" for this one. So it had to come in later, most likely with different people at different times. But the idea of large scale resettlement at the end of the Roman Empire gains some credibility I guess, even though it surely won't explain all or even the majority.

    I'd be really surprised if 0 of those branches were ultimately Greek, considering how Greek-derived Sicily is.
    To me that's another "no way", because even if it was primarily Daco-Thracians, those influences did reach Greece and the Greeks before or at the time of some of the colonies in Southern Italy. And if we are to assume that there was real Greek influence of significance on Sicily, at least some E-V13 should have taken that way.

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  7. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huban View Post
    There are 14 E-A10158 BigY results, nobody has uploaded to YFull. Maybe you can ask this Macedonian and Bulgarian to do so, to determine relation with this Bulgarian who is most likely of that branch, though I don't know his SNPs.
    None of them is in the project I administer. They are members of the Bulgarian DNA Project however.
    Target: Aspar_scaled
    Distance: 1.9646% / 0.01964602 | ADC: 1x RC
    57.6 Macedonian
    42.4 Greek_Central_Macedonia

  8. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspar View Post
    Not all of course. Probably this branch have nothing to do with more recent migrations.
    SRS8752742 from the Turkish study who makes a branch with the Greeks is in gedmatch looks like a Pomak to me.
    KG5648968
    # Population Percent
    1 Baltic 24.98
    2 East_Med 18.67
    3 West_Asian 18.55
    4 North_Atlantic 18.33
    5 West_Med 14.15
    6 Red_Sea 1.56
    7 South_Asian 1.32
    8 East_Asian 1.15
    9 Amerindian 1.08
    10 Oceanian 0.21

    # Population (source) Distance
    1 Bulgarian 7.58
    2 Romanian 8.75
    3 Serbian 11.73
    4 Greek_Thessaly 12.86
    5 Moldavian 13.98
    6 Croatian 17.4
    7 Central_Greek 17.75

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  10. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by vasil View Post
    SRS8752742 from the Turkish study who makes a branch with the Greeks is in gedmatch looks like a Pomak to me.
    KG5648968
    # Population Percent
    1 Baltic 24.98
    2 East_Med 18.67
    3 West_Asian 18.55
    4 North_Atlantic 18.33
    5 West_Med 14.15
    6 Red_Sea 1.56
    7 South_Asian 1.32
    8 East_Asian 1.15
    9 Amerindian 1.08
    10 Oceanian 0.21

    # Population (source) Distance
    1 Bulgarian 7.58
    2 Romanian 8.75
    3 Serbian 11.73
    4 Greek_Thessaly 12.86
    5 Moldavian 13.98
    6 Croatian 17.4
    7 Central_Greek 17.75
    Great find...

    Distance to: SRS8752742
    6.45491286 Turk_Deliorman
    6.93196942 Pomak_Greece
    7.75075480 Moldova_South_Gagauzia
    7.75677124 Pomak_Bulgaria
    7.79853191 Bulgaria_Southeastern
    7.91015803 Bulgaria_Northeastern
    8.30341496 Bulgaria_Northcentral
    8.80299381 Bulgaria_average
    8.87441829 Romania_Muntenia
    8.87454788 Bulgaria_Southcentral
    9.24272146 Romania_Wallachia
    9.25572796 Turk_Trakya
    9.29974731 Romania_Dobruja
    9.36687248 Bulgaria_Southwestern
    9.91611315 Romania_Banat
    10.01798882 Bulgaria_Northwestern
    10.10741807 Moldova_South
    10.19111378 Turk_Makedonya
    10.24606754 Romania_Oltenia
    10.27250700 Romania_average
    10.67882952 Greek_Northern-Thrace
    10.95135608 Vlach(Aromanian)_average
    10.97154957 Romania_Moldavia_South
    11.09476002 Macedonian_North
    11.11337033 Romania_Transylvania

    His distances are still pretty high though. Too much West Asian to be a pure Pomak and too little Siberian and East Asian to be a pure Balkan Turk. The great distances are probably caused because this person is a third or forth generation of Balkan Muslims in Turkey that mixed with native Turks.
    His 2way however:

    Distance to: SRS8752742
    1.22811605 69.20% Bosniak_Bosnia + 30.80% Turk_East_Black_Sea
    1.51792112 73.20% Bosniak + 26.80% Turk_Meskhetian
    1.62560301 70.80% Bosniak_Bosnia + 29.20% Laz
    1.73388123 74.00% Bosniak + 26.00% Laz

    1.77707795 39.00% Greek_Trabzon + 61.00% Ukrainian_Galicia
    1.79783062 69.20% Bosniak_Bosnia + 30.80% Greek_Caucasus
    1.80406759 35.40% Turk_East_Black_Sea + 64.60% Ukrainian_Carpathian
    1.80733838 44.20% Greek_Trabzon + 55.80% Silesian
    1.84334002 81.60% Pomak_Bulgaria + 18.40% Tabassaran
    1.84804568 16.80% Lak + 83.20% Pomak_Bulgaria
    1.86077951 68.80% Croat_East + 31.20% Turk_East_Black_Sea
    1.87452092 31.40% Armenian_East + 68.60% Bosniak_Bosnia
    1.88244600 35.40% Greek_Caucasus + 64.60% Ukrainian_Carpathian
    1.90252175 16.40% Dargin + 83.60% Pomak_Bulgaria
    1.90358462 76.00% Moldova_average + 24.00% Turk_Meskhetian
    1.94330083 36.20% Greek_Trabzon + 63.80% Ukrainian_Carpathian
    1.95676340 17.00% Avar + 83.00% Pomak_Bulgaria
    1.96836193 43.20% Greek_Caucasus + 56.80% Silesian
    1.98554535 75.80% Moldova_Centre + 24.20% Turk_Meskhetian
    2.02316404 18.20% Lezgin + 81.80% Pomak_Bulgaria
    2.02583197 38.20% Greek_Caucasus + 61.80% Ukrainian_Galicia
    2.02894245 14.80% Dargin + 85.20% Pomak_Greece
    2.03584947 23.60% Laz + 76.40% Moldova_Centre
    2.06483392 23.40% Laz + 76.60% Moldova_average
    2.08084952 29.00% Armenian_East + 71.00% Moldova_North

    His native Turkish ancestry is exclusively East Black Sea and the best Balkan proxy is Bosniak. You can see Pomak is not the best proxy because it requires something Caucasian such as Darkin, Lak or Tabassaran to model this person before anything Turkish. His y-dna is also most diverse in the West Balkans. This is an interesting finding nevertheless...
    Target: Aspar_scaled
    Distance: 1.9646% / 0.01964602 | ADC: 1x RC
    57.6 Macedonian
    42.4 Greek_Central_Macedonia

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  12. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspar View Post
    Great find...

    ...
    Interestingly my parent 1/4 Christian Bulgarian part has the same percentage of Caucasian/West Asian admixture

    Target: Cyryl_mom_scaled
    Distance: 2.6107% / 0.02610729 | R3P
    75.2 Ukrainian
    17.6 Macedonian
    7.2 Turkish_East

    If this guy is Pomak it would be interesting to know from which region his ancestors are from, maybe we do not really know everything about regional differences in Bulgaria, however as you mentioned, it is also possible he is mixed Bosniak.

    I have Gedmatch results of one Muslim Bulgarian/Balkan Turk and his results are very similar to this sample

    Distance to: X
    2.99901651 Bulgarian_Thrace
    3.63646807 Turk_Makedonya
    4.09764567 Greek_Thessaloniki
    5.20142288 Greek_Thrace
    5.28665301 Greek_Thessaly
    5.48382166 Greek_Peloponnese
    6.16730898 Bulgarian_East
    6.31177471 Albanian
    6.41751510 Greek_Macedonia
    6.49062401 Moldovan_Gagauz
    6.65689117 Turk_Trakya
    6.95827565 Albanian_Kosovo
    7.16782394 Turk_Deliorman
    7.27626965 Macedonian_South
    7.29021262 Greek_Central
    7.60311778 Macedonian_Northeast&Skopje
    7.62603436 Pomak_Greece
    7.73401577 Greek_Athens
    7.88811131 Macedonian_Vardar
    8.67640479 Bulgarian_Central
    8.71298456 Macedonian_Polog
    8.73643520 Macedonian_East
    9.08855324 Pomak_Bulgaria
    9.36381333 Greek_Foca
    9.73389439 Bulgarian_West

    Distance to: X
    1.98312407 21.00% Circassian + 79.00% Macedonian_South
    1.99878155 85.20% Greek_Macedonia + 14.80% Turk_East_Black_Sea
    2.00476869 82.60% Macedonian_South + 17.40% Ossetian_South
    2.03462661 85.60% Bulgarian_East + 14.40% Turk_East_Black_Sea
    2.04768018 20.80% Balkar + 79.20% Macedonian_South
    2.04895226 80.20% Macedonian_Northeast&Skopje + 19.80% Turk_East
    2.04996707 80.80% Macedonian_South + 19.20% Ossetian
    2.06310168 86.00% Bulgarian_East + 14.00% Greek_Pontus
    2.09471790 20.20% Karachay + 79.80% Macedonian_South
    2.10336146 82.60% Macedonian_Northeast&Skopje + 17.40% Turk_Ahiska
    2.10372354 85.40% Greek_Macedonia + 14.60% Greek_Pontus
    2.12042388 19.80% Adyghe + 80.20% Macedonian_South
    2.14248338 21.20% Abazin + 78.80% Macedonian_South
    2.15966057 24.20% Greek_Cappadocia + 75.80% Pomak_Bulgaria
    2.16816777 23.80% Greek_Pontus + 76.20% Romanian
    2.17577338 86.20% Greek_Macedonia + 13.80% Hemshin
    2.18014360 27.20% Greek_Cappadocia + 72.80% Moldovan_South
    2.18090281 22.40% Greek_Pontus + 77.60% Moldovan_South
    2.18398336 80.80% Bulgarian_Central + 19.20% Greek_Pontus
    2.18707551 82.80% Macedonian_Northeast&Skopje + 17.20% Turk_East_Black_Sea
    2.19211402 86.40% Greek_Macedonia + 13.60% Laz
    2.19499624 16.00% Abkhazian + 84.00% Macedonian_South
    2.19566175 77.40% Macedonian_Northeast&Skopje + 22.60% Turk_Central_East
    2.19568055 11.20% Dargin_Kaitag + 88.80% Greek_Thessaloniki
    2.20658336 82.80% Bulgarian_East + 17.20% Greek_Cappadocia

    Interesting is, that he has no Turkic admixture, but has Q haplogroup
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/Q-L715/

    Hard to explain this admix historically though, I doubt it comes from Turks, it would give him Siberian percentage
    Last edited by CyrylBojarski; 08-05-2021 at 09:55 AM.

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  14. #48
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    The Q L715 is obviously from the Caucasian branch and the admixture is most probably Circassian/ BalkanTurk. There were a large number of Caucasian Muslims settled in Bulgaria in 1850s with population exchange with Russia, however almost all left after Bulgaria became independent.

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  16. #49
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    Western Thrace
    Ethnicity
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    Quote Originally Posted by eastara View Post
    The Q L715 is obviously from the Caucasian branch and the admixture is most probably Circassian/ BalkanTurk. There were a large number of Caucasian Muslims settled in Bulgaria in 1850s with population exchange with Russia, however almost all left after Bulgaria became independent.
    I have to disagree,

    1- Circassian community is well represented in Gedmatch and Circassians usually match with each other in the way that we can even find their specific tribes by looking at their matches. However, that sample has no Circassian matches in the first 500. Neither are any other Caucasian matches.
    2- His results are not isolated enough to make me think that he has Caucasian ancestry, what we see is pretty much Macedonian Turkish average actually.
    3- Other relevant matches show a potential Macedonian(regional) Turkish or Deliorman Turkish origin. A mix of Deliorman Turkish and Albanian also should be in mind.

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  18. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaspias View Post
    I have to disagree,

    1- Circassian community is well represented in Gedmatch and Circassians usually match with each other in the way that we can even find their specific tribes by looking at their matches. However, that sample has no Circassian matches in the first 500. Neither are any other Caucasian matches.
    2- His results are not isolated enough to make me think that he has Caucasian ancestry, what we see is pretty much Macedonian Turkish average actually.
    3- Other relevant matches show a potential Macedonian(regional) Turkish or Deliorman Turkish origin. A mix of Deliorman Turkish and Albanian also should be in mind.
    What about Orthodox Bulgarians, who also have this kind of admixture? Also, if he is Macedonian Turkish why doesn't he score any Central Asian populations instead?

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