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Thread: Population admixture structure and demographic history of North East Asians

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryukendo View Post
    You're talking about the UXJD outlier (Longtoushan_BA_o or Upper_Xiajiadian_o). The others are as I've described, check my sources.
    In that article by Huang et al they look very similar to the Lower Xiajiadan culture samples, which was my point. UXJD has two components - local agriculturalists and steppe newcomers. The outlier is one of the newcomers.

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  3. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by CopperAxe View Post
    In that article by Huang et al they look very similar to the Lower Xiajiadan culture samples, which was my point. UXJD has two components - local agriculturalists and steppe newcomers. The outlier is one of the newcomers.
    How do you know that there is a newcomer vs local distinction in the UXJD and not that this is just an outlier?
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  4. #43
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    Why/How can you be so sure that Upper Xiajiadian are related to Mongolians?
    It’s not that Upper Xiajiadians are close to “Mongolians” but they are ancestral (mostly or partially?) to Manchurians -as defined in Thomas Barfield’s A Perilous Frontier what “a Manchurian state” is and by modern Qing dynasty historians - and not really as integral to cultures south of them, Sinitics, Koreans and Japonics, when in history they were often in direct opposition to East Asian, agriculturist civilisations up to the Qing dynasty.
    Last edited by Sklvn; 07-26-2021 at 05:00 AM.

  5. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sklvn View Post
    It’s not that Upper Xiajiadians are close to “Mongolians” but they are ancestral (mostly or partially?) to Manchurians -elaborated in Thomas Barfirld’s A Perilous Frontier and by modern Qing dynasty historians - and not really as integral to cultures south of them, Sinitics, Koreans and Japonics, when in history they were often in direct opposition to East Asian, agriculturist civilizations up to the Qing dynasty.
    Who are "Manchurians"? Tungusic-speaking people? They were likely hunter-gatherers (speakers of all branches of Tungusic except Manchu are HGs even today) spreading from foci much to the east of the West Liao area and the Manchu-related populations picked up pastoralism well into the historical period, in fact possibly from Koreanics (!) because the only linguistic branch of that family who were pastoralists (Jurchen-Manchu) speak languages that have been typologically and lexically heavily Koreanized and quite divergent from the rest of the family, possibly because of their descent from the Korguryoic peasantry who were ruled by a pastoral Koreanic elite. These Jurchen-Manchu (and Tungusics overall) are not going to be direct descendants of the metal age Inner-Mongolian-West-Liao pastoralists at all because their heritage was HG-associated up into the historical period.

    Unless you are talking about a "Manchurian cultural sphere", or many "Manchurian political entities/historical-political tradition" in which case something like this can make sense, but then we're not talking about direct linguistic or population-genetic descent. Donghu/Mongols/para-Mongols like Xianbei are a different story of course, but the Longtoushan_BA_o seems to suggest they were not the major component of the local population even into the BA--I think its likely they came from further North near the Khingan.
    Last edited by Ryukendo; 07-25-2021 at 09:31 PM.
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  7. #45
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    The people who have been studying these topics for decades would like to respectfully disagree.

    Since political allegiance and thus tribal identity was not necessarily purely linguistically determined. Since the political unit knows as the Shiwei Confederation could include tribes who linguistically spoke both Proto-Mongolic known as Khamag, and Para-Mongolic related to Khitan and both Southern Tungusic and Northern Tungusic, which went on to become Ewenki.

  8. #46
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    Does it exactly matter?

    Since the Upper Xiajiadian folk adopted horse back riding, their descendants (cue the Xianbei) were mobile and could easily spread to somewhere, say the Amur Basin near Khabarovsk, Russia or Chiangbai Mountain on the border of North Korea and China and blend in with populations there, passing on their genetic signals

    They could easily blend into surrounding population who could in turn blend into other surrounding populations
    Last edited by Sklvn; 07-25-2021 at 10:01 PM.

  9. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryukendo View Post
    How do you know that there is a newcomer vs local distinction in the UXJD and not that this is just an outlier?
    There was a newcomer dynamic because the material culture is based on the shift away from the LXJD traditions to a more pastoral centered culture with many steppe artefacts and artforms/designs. Influence, migration, replacement call it whatever, it involves novel influences to the region from the steppes (mediated through newc...).

    In the UXJD The wealthiest graves are the large stone chambered tombs, which often had bronze vessels, weapons and armor or horse riding equipment as grave goods. The least wealthy are the pit graves, which are a continuation of the typical LXJD pit grave traditions, in both burial type and offerings presented.

    In regards to the three samples from Longtoushan, there isn't really a specification in regards to the burials.

  10. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sklvn View Post
    Does it exactly matter?

    Since the Upper Xiajiadian folk adopted horse back riding, their descendants (cue the Xianbei) were mobile and could easily spread to somewhere, say the Amur Basin near Khabarovsk, Russia or Chiangbai Mountain on the border of North Korea and China and blend in with populations there, passing on their genetic signals

    They could easily blend into surrounding population who could in turn blend into other surrounding populations
    People on this site are very interested in tracing exact patterns of linguistic and ethnogenetic descent. Of course polities in NE China can broadly be said to have interacted and have had a distinct political tradition (many have argued this) but you can't just wave hands and say any culture in N China with lots of pastoralism must be more related to pastoralist cultures and populations in the historical period and present day than any predominantly agriculturalist population today. I either case, the Upper Xiajiadian is not a completely pastoralist culture:

    ... These interpretations would be consistent with the identification of Upper
    Xiajiadian with early mobile herders, and could be used to suggest the development of a mobile
    pastoral way of life out of a well-established sedentary agricultural one. This led Shelach to
    characterize Lower Xiajiadian economy as primarily agricultural with a shift toward mobility
    and herding in Upper Xiajiadian. Systematic survey of 1,234 sq km in the Chifeng region,
    however, complemented by stratigraphic testing, documents extensive Upper Xiajiadian
    habitation areas with considerable stratigraphic accumulation of construction debris (Chifeng
    2011b), as well as higher regional population densities than in Lower Xiajiadian times (Chifeng
    2003, 2011b:126). Farming implements are recovered from Upper Xiajiadian sites as well. Most
    of the domesticated animal remains are still those of pigs (70%), and millet was still by far the
    most abundant taxon among identified seeds (Zhao 2011:30-34). This evidence is not consistent
    with the emergence of a Late Bronze Age lifeway built around specialized mobile herding...

    ...Recent settlement study and stratigraphic excavation do clearly demonstrate
    sedentary living and a subsistence system based on grain cultivation and animal husbandry in
    Chifeng. This does not, however, automatically mean that there were no specialized herders
    following a more mobile way of life during this period anywhere in Northeast China. Very
    broadly speaking, the Northern Zone is a steppe environment, but at the local scale to which
    subsistence systems are actually adaptations, it is a patchwork of subtly varied conditions that
    would have manifested differently the changes in temperature and precipitation during the
    Bronze Age...

    ... This chapter will go
    on to explain how, even when the Late Bronze Age settlement density appears to correspond to
    small camps left by mobile herders, the locational evidence suggests otherwise. It then goes on to
    explain some of the implications of this for both models developed in East Asia (Barfield 1981,
    1989; DiCosmo 1994, 1999, 2002; Linduff 1995, 1997; Shelach 1999; Xu et al. 2002) as well as
    other Old World regions (Anthony 2007; Heibert 1994; Irons 1974; Khazanov 1994; Kohl 2002,
    2007; Kradin 2002; Shishlina and Heibert 1998). The results of this research, like the Chifeng
    region, deviate from theoretical expectations about the Bronze Age emergence of specialized
    mobile herding (Chifeng 2011b:130)....

    ...As discussed in Chapter 6, the evidence from this dissertation points toward mixed economies in
    Zhangwu throughout the Bronze Age. The high population densities during the Early Bronze
    Age may in fact require economic diversification in order to sustain itself (Halstead and O'Shea
    1989). The evidence of use-wear indicating butchery and hide processing within the same
    communities where agricultural tools were recovered certainly speak to a mixed economy...

    ...The lower regional population during the Late Bronze Age could have been maintained
    through a number of pursuits, but the evidence points toward the persistence of the same type of
    mixed economy despite differences from the Early Bronze Age in the sizes of communities.
    During this period, forty percent of the regional population is made up of small local communities
    that would appear to be consistent with specialized mobile herding but it is the
    residents of these same small settlements that seem to prefer locations on better farmland and
    closer to stable sources of water...

    ... Finally, small dispersed settlement is not the only form of habitation during the Late
    Bronze Age.
    During the Late Bronze Age there is evidence for one large settlement in the Northern
    sub-region near the modern village of Tuchengzi... Based on the regional survey, we know
    that the settlement contained the majority of the regional
    population and the processing of animals were taking place there. However, it is much larger
    than ethnographic examples of herding aggregation sites. The populations at these sites are
    usually about 1/10th the size of Tuchengzi (Mearns 1993, 1996)....

    ...Khazanov (1994) describes the “complete absence of agriculture” occurring in Central Asia
    around the seventh century BCE. Frachetti (2008:19) describes such communities as early as
    3500 BCE. In Northeast China, it is convention to see a similar economy occurring around 1200
    BCE (Di Cosmo 2002; Shelach 1999). In Zhangwu, a wholesale adoption of an economy based
    domestic animal economies during the Bronze Age would not be an accurate interpretation of the
    evidence. Even though higher proportions of tools related to butchery and hide processing
    indicate animals may have been a major element in the economy of Bronze Age Zhangwu, “pure
    pastoralism” (Khazanov 1994) does not appear to characterize the region or the northern subregion. During the Early Bronze Age animals seem to be a more important part of the economy
    in the northern sub-region when compared to the south. However, dense settlement with
    populations in the hundreds or thousands is not at all consistent with dispersed mobile herders or
    “pure pastoralists"....

    ... However, during the Late Bronze Age, much of the
    population are still living in a substantial settlement of hundreds of individuals. It is not until the
    Iron Age that the regional settlement pattern resembles the small local communities and slightly
    larger sites that are consistent with mobile camps and winter aggregation settlements
    characteristic of specialized mobile herders.... it is apparent the evidence for Iron Age
    mobile herding is much clearer and nearly ethnographic in the case of the Xiongnu (Chin 2012)...

    ...One of the major contributing factors which led scholars to suggest the emergence of
    mobile herding at he onset of the Late Bronze Age is the proliferation of Northern Style Bronzes.
    It is becoming clearer that this proliferation might well relate to the signaling of identity
    (Shelach 2009a) rather than anything which relates concretely to subsistence economies...

    ...During the Late Bronze Age, in Zhangwu, about 60% of the population opted to nucleate
    in a large settlement... Although there are greater numbers of farming tools in the south, it is not
    commensurate with differences in the settlement patterning. The Early Bronze Age population of
    local communities reaches up to the thousands in both the north and the south, and the high
    population density is nearly identical despite differences in the evidence from use-wear analysis...
    Diversification to mitigate risk rather than
    specialization might be a better way to understand the evidence from both the Early and Late
    Bronze Age...

    ...Understanding that the adoption of animal economies can be subtle as communities
    hedge the uncertainties of food production underscores a few points. The pace of economic
    change may be very different based on the context. If the texts are accurate, then it means in
    Zhangwu specialized mobile herding was an Iron Age phenomenon and the emergence of the
    Xiongnu polity in this region was built on antecedents which cannot be described as mobile
    herding economies. Alternatively, the pace of economic change was very quick as the influence
    of the Xiongnu polity moved into the region...
    From here: http://d-scholarship.pitt.edu/21132/...liams_2014.pdf

    Also this:
    ...There does not appear to be an area or period during the Bronze Age in Zhangwu
    when agriculture completely disappeared from the range of economic activities. It is
    clear that mobile herding never completely replaced sedentary agriculture in this
    region or either of its subregions...

    ...Both the northern and southern parts of the survey area provide evidence of mixed
    economies. The balance of the mixture varies between the north and south. There is a
    relatively greater emphasis on animal processing in the northern subregion, while
    communities in the southern subregion appear to have been relatively more engaged in
    agricultural activities....

    ...Neither of the two subregions presents evidence of specialization to the degree that
    might suggest the compulsory complementary relationship between groups of local
    communities that has been theorized by many scholars (Barfield 2001; Irons 1979;
    Jagchid and Symons 1989; Kazanov 1994). It instead appears that agricultural goods
    and animal products could be obtained within each local community. Or if people
    could not obtain such goods and products from their immediate neighbors, they could
    certainly acquire them from within their sub-regional environmental zone...

    ....The evidence points to a mixed subsistence economy that relied on both domesticated
    plants and animals. The relative proportions of animal vs. plant usage varied as a result
    of the sub-regional environmental conditions...

    ...The type of animal care consistent with the settlement evidence would have involved
    herding animals during the day or over a few days at distances of up to a few kilometers.
    The residential pattern of these herders would be sedentism... Ethnographic examples of this type of animal
    husbandry and settlement pattern show that children do the majority of herding (Fratkin
    1989:434; Tenenbaum et al. 2004), allowing adults to carry out farming activities in
    proximity to villages and farmsteads. Alternatively, specialization at the household level
    within local communities would also produce the patterns described in this article.

    Faunal evidence dated to the Early and Late Bronze Age indicates that pigs were the
    most common species used in Chifeng (Chifeng 2011)... Although there are exceptions (Kohl 2009:97), societies with high
    degrees of residential mobility seldom raise pigs as a subsistence activity. Sedentary
    millet farming and pig raising would be consistent with the population densities and
    tool use-wear patterns from both the Early and Late Bronze Age periods...

    ...There does not appear to have been an increase in extensive herding economies that
    would have resulted in increased residential mobility by the Late Bronze Age. Instead,
    the evidence suggests a persistent pattern of plant cultivation mixed with animal
    husbandry that changes in relative intensity depending on local environmental
    conditions.
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  12. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by CopperAxe View Post
    There was a newcomer dynamic because the material culture is based on the shift away from the LXJD traditions to a more pastoral centered culture with many steppe artefacts and artforms/designs. Influence, migration, replacement call it whatever, it involves novel influences to the region from the steppes (mediated through newc...).

    In the UXJD The wealthiest graves are the large stone chambered tombs, which often had bronze vessels, weapons and armor or horse riding equipment as grave goods. The least wealthy are the pit graves, which are a continuation of the typical LXJD pit grave traditions, in both burial type and offerings presented.

    In regards to the three samples from Longtoushan, there isn't really a specification in regards to the burials.
    It might be that there was an elite of pastoral origin, but I think there's some tension between that interpretation and the archaeological evidence (look at my previous post #48), where you would think that an incoming population would clearly retain its pastoral economy and create a segmented society with two groups with different specialisations. You can also contrast the situation in the UXJD culture with the situation in Jinggouzi, where aDNA (only Ydna so far, but thats enough) shows the population is clearly replaced.
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  13. #50
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    Ryukendo, I know you may be playing a bit of a role as the devil's advocate, but ridden horses in particularly Chinese warfare were not used until the 4th century BCE
    Koreans probably used horses until much later into their Iron Age and was most likely adopted from Warring States to Han dynasty fighting traditions, but influenced by continentals as well in terms of ornaments like belt buckles and reigns. And early Koreans and Japanese horseriding traditions and cavalry tactics are more similar to Han Chinese in terms of fighting style, armour and organisation, which all were very well influenced by continental traditions at the same time/intervals, and not just derived independently from different sources.

    Khitans and Jurchens lived similarly mixed pastoral and agrarian lifestyles as those you described of the Upper Xiajiadian.
    There was a chapter in Mark Elvin's The Retreat of the Elephants, a book Razib Khan loves to tout, dedicated to describing the mixed pastoral steppe-and agrarian zone Khitans inhabited, in which Han Chinese may have also partaken in too. Khitans like Jurchens were mentioned to eat heavily pork-based diets too besides cattle.

    Chinese and Koreans did not want to touch, handle and slaughter animals in the same way these Manchurian peoples would have been familiar with. And set aside different occupations, as part of a stratified agrarian societies, to slaughter and distribute animal meat

    Proto-Manchu and other Tungusic languages have a Mongolic counting system/numerals, more specifically in Para-Mongolic, either Khitan or Xianbeic like forms, and plenty of shared basic vocabulary, in its most basic layers. Most Tungustic languages share aspects to Mongolic, while only southern Tungusic languages share anything in common with Korean, or either Koguryo/"Fuyu" northern Japonic, which Robbeets seems to be a proponent of.

    Russian archaeologists seem to have plenty of ample evidence for Tungusic associated archaeological cultures on the Amur or the Amur zone relying on horseback riding from the middle of the 1st millenium, bones, belt buckles etc and their spread throughout Manchuria and the Russian Far Eastern territories. While written historical records point to horse back riding traditions among the Jurchen or Jurchen ancestors to around the 7th-8th centuries

    Manchus and Jurchens have Hunnic/Hunnish hairstyles, the queue, and Khitans had their own shaved, and braided variations of the same idea

    Again towards the Khingan Mountain Range is the more likely source/origin than the Korean peninsula, and far geographically closer to the centre of the horse-riding world Kazakhstan and Southern Russia. And the Khingan Mountain Range is where the core of the Upper Xiajiaidian culture is located at and radiated from.
    Last edited by Sklvn; 07-26-2021 at 05:11 AM.

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