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Thread: Population admixture structure and demographic history of North East Asians

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Howard23 View Post
    About 6000 years ago, East Asian coastal people had signs of ocean navigation, so I think Jomon in 3000 years ago could not remain pure. According to the Hoabinhian paper, Jomon can be modeled as Onge + Ami, Ami is often used as a proxy of East Asian. I think this model is reasonable. The Longlin Ancients in Guangxi is close to Jomon autosomally, It is probably because they have similar mixed models. Geographically, the Longlin ancients in 10000 years ago were just sandwiched between the East Asians and the Hoabinhians.
    This is an attractive hypothesis, but if you look at their SI 13, the cladality of all Jomon groups is pretty secure.
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  3. #32
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    While the Turkic-speaking Xiongnu,37 214 Old
    Uyghur and Türk are extremely scattered, the Mongolic-speaking38 215 Iron Age Xianbei fall
    216 closer to the Amur cluster than the Shiwei, Rouran, Khitan and Middle Mongolian Khanate
    217 from Antiquity and the Middle Ages.
    They could be from "A dynamic 6,000-year genetic history of Eurasia’s Eastern Steppe" from last year?

  4. #33
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    Also what I think was most significant about that study is that it showed modern Mongolian ethnicities, Khalkha, Buryats and Kalmyks to cluster a lot closer to each other than usually appreciated, than they were to Medieval Mongolian samples. It has been debated at times that Kalmyks/Oirats and Buryats to be totally separate classifiable tribes from "Mongols", when they were proven to be a lot closer to each other than expected.

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    Hmm, I'm softening on my position and am going to try to run some PCAs and qpAdms on this data once its released because the currently published analyses somewhat contradict as to the affinities of the Upper Xiajiadian culture (which the Ning/Robeets paper models as the best mainland East Asian contributor to Yayoi genomes of Japan and the post-Neolithic, Bronze Age Taejungni genome from Korea, and thus if we believe them is uniquely important for the pop gen makeup of Koreans and Japanese).

    The Upper Xiajiadian culture is projected onto Boshan and other ancient Bohai Bay genomes such as Bianbian and Xiaojingshan from the Houli culture in the PCA from Mengge Wang et. al. (pg 4 here: https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1...884v2.full.pdf), making them more Northern than the East Asian progenitor of Japanese and Koreans, but the PCA of Huang et al 2020 (pg 18 here: https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1...225v1.full.pdf) places Upper Xiajiadian right smack on top of Japanese and Koreans (i.e. more southern), and their ADMIXTURE analysis (which is also very well done) also models Upper Xiajiadian as quite agriculturalist. There is probably quite a bit of projection bias in both these PCAs and a clear outcome will require some redoing (e.g. projecting both ancients and moderns onto very old East Asian HGs >6000BP).

    Also, the Liaoning Bronze Dagger culture which entered Korea from adjacent parts of mainland East Asia (Southern Liaoning, Inner Mongolia, and Northern Hebei) and disrupted Rice Farming in Korea for a few centuries, and which are probably clearly connected to the arrival of Koreanic to Korea, finds its roots in the uppermost layers of the Upper Xiajiadian culture. You can find state-of-the-art archaeological interpretations of the Metal Age archaeology of Korea here: https://scholarspace.manoa.hawaii.ed...AP_54.1kim.pdf and here: https://issuu.com/kocis9/docs/20130306_jkaa1/9 (the first chapter of this book). So there is reason to connect Upper Xiajiadian with Korea.
    Last edited by Ryukendo; 07-25-2021 at 07:54 PM.
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  7. #35
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    Upper Xiajiadian is associated with a southward spread of a Mongolic-related culture that heavily relied on horseback riding from the direction of the Amur
    But with more East Asian, Yellow River Farmer related ancestry and signals, calculated to be around 70%, with 30% attributed to AR genomes - from one of the genetic studies published by Cambridge of last year.

    (Modern HGDP Mongola, taken from Hulunbuir, Xibo, taken from Xinjiang, and southern-shifted Hezhen are considered in that ballpark too). Daur, Oroqen and more northern-shifted Hezhens are further more "northern" "Amur"/Siberian than that.

    It is hypothesised the descendant cultures of or related to Upper Xiajiadian contributed heavily to the formation of the ancestors of these groups living in "Manchuria"/Northeast China, and also would be ancestral to the Manchus/Jurchens and Khitans as well hundreds of years ago.

    Their outward material culture and implements, however, were clearly related to those of modern Mongolians than to Koreans or Japanese.
    Those eastward Upper Xiajiadian sites in the studies would be considered to be at the very periphery of Korean/Japonic zones.

    The question posed by where Upper Xiajidian can be placed and at what stage in history is well presented and introduced by CopperAxe in this thread:
    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....astern-Steppes

    A lot of important details introducing "officially" researched and documented Mongolian history can be found in the Encyclopedia of Mongolia and the Mongol Empire by Christopher Atwood

    I Professor Atwood allowed public access to an uploaded version of his work through here:
    https://www.academia.edu/8855875/Enc..._Mongol_Empire
    Last edited by Sklvn; 07-25-2021 at 09:12 PM.

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  9. #36
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    Something else I noticed: We know from Ning et al 2020 that the expansion of rice farming from Southern China to Northern China was associated with spread of southeast asian ancestry up North, making the Metal Age Northern Chinese genomes from mixed millet-rice-farmers more Southern than the earlier Yangshao and Hongshan genomes who were almost pure millet farmers. If you look at the ADMIXTURE analysis of Huang et. al. (also on pg 18) who found a "Hlai" component (green) that peaks among Tai-Kradai speakers in Hainan island, all the millet-farming genomes or non-farmers from early Northern China (millet farmers include Hongshan and Yangshao, the latter can include broadly Wuzhuangguoliang, Miaozigou, Qijia etc., non-farmers include the Houli culture samples such as Biabian, Boshan, labeled "Shandong_EN" in the ADMIXTURE) do not have or have very little of the "Hlai" component, but all the late mixed rice-millet farmers from Metal Age China, including the Upper Xiajiadian culture, have really quite a lot of "Hlai". This "Hali" is the Southeast Asian component that increases, not any other type of Southeast Asian ancestry such as Austronesian or Austroasiatic-related ancestry. Large amounts of "Hlai" is also in fact the major difference between the earlier millet-farming Hongshan and later agropastoralists of the Southern Inner Mongolia-Liaoning region. Present-day Japanese and Koreans have a lot of it too.

    The qpGraph analysis of Huang et al (pg 22) models the Hlai genome as an unadmixed descendant of a Southeast Asian branch that contributed to Vietnam_N (Austroasiatic-related ancestry) by admixing with Hoabinhians, Taiwan_Hanben (Austronesian-related ancestry) by admixing with a Jomon-related lineage and Hmong-Mien-related ancestry by admixing with Northeast-Asian-related lineage. Rice-related vocabulary is deeply rooted in Austroasiatic, Hmong-Mien, Austronesian and Tai. It seems like they have detected a type of ancestry that expanded throughout Southeast Asia with the advent of rice farming that is proxied best by modern isolated Tai-Kradai populations from Hainan... I wonder if they'll find such a type of ancestry in early Neolithic populations at the mouth of the Yangtze? That would explain a great deal!
    Last edited by Ryukendo; 07-25-2021 at 08:14 PM.
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  11. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sklvn View Post
    Upper Xiajiadian is associated with a southward spread of a Mongolic-related culture that heavily relied on horseback riding from the direction of the Amur
    But with more East Asian, Yellow River Farmer related ancestry and signals, calculated to be around 70%, with 30% attributed to AR genomes - from one of the genetic studies published by Cambridge of last year.

    (Modern HGDP Mongola, taken from Hulunbuir, Xibo, taken from Xinjiang, and southern-shifted Hezhen are considered in that ballpark too). Daur, Oroqen and more northern-shifted Hezhens are further more "northern" "Amur"/Siberian than that.

    Their outward material culture and implements, however, were clearly related to those of modern Mongolians

    Those eastward Upper Xiajiadian sites in the studies would be considered to be at the very periphery of Korean/Japonic zones.
    But the PCAs consistently show that the Upper Xiajiadian are more southern than any Mongolic population, do you see any PCA where they overlap with Mongolics? I haven't found any.

    Why/How can you be so sure that Upper Xiajiadian are related to Mongolians? If its just because Mongols and their ancestors are assumed to be pastoralist and must always be pastoralist and everyone else must be agriculturalist, let me remind you that the earliest Koreans who emerged into history could either be more agriculturalist (Paekche, Silla) or more pastoralist (Koguryo), in fact in the latter kingdom a Koreanic pastoralist elite ruled over a foraging/farming Tungusic population. Also the spread of Liaoning Bronze Dagger culture into Korea led to a farming hiatus for multiple centuries in a lot of the peninsula. Pastoralist cultures in NE China can also be related to Koreanics, no?

    If you look at the Upper Xiajiadian BA aDNA, we have a couple of individuals that are quite southern and part of the "main" cluster, but also an outlier who falls among present-day Mongolics and Tungusics and is almost 100% Amur_HG/Mongolia_N_East related. You can see this in the PCA of Mengge Wang et al and the ADMIXTURE of Huang et al. I would guess that the Dongu individuals will also turn out like that and that these are the Mongolics.
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  12. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryukendo View Post
    Hmm, I'm softening on my position and am going to try to run some PCAs and qpAdms on this data once its released because the currently published analyses somewhat contradict as to the affinities of the Upper Xiajiadian culture (which the Ning/Robeets paper models as the best mainland East Asian contributor to Yayoi genomes of Japan and the post-Neolithic, Bronze Age Taejungni genome from Korea, and thus if we believe them is uniquely important for the pop gen makeup of Koreans and Japanese).

    The Upper Xiajiadian culture is projected onto Boshan and other ancient Bohai Bay genomes such as Bianbian and Xiaojingshan from the Houli culture in the PCA from Mengge Wang et. al. (pg 4 here: https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1...884v2.full.pdf), making them more Northern than the East Asian progenitor of Japanese and Koreans, but the PCA of Huang et al 2020 (pg 18 here: https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1...225v1.full.pdf) places Upper Xiajiadian right smack on top of Japanese and Koreans (i.e. more southern), and their ADMIXTURE analysis (which is also very well done) also models Upper Xiajiadian as quite agriculturalist. There is probably quite a bit of projection bias in both these PCAs and a clear outcome will require some redoing (e.g. projecting both ancients and moderns onto very old East Asian HGs >6000BP).

    Also, the Liaoning Bronze Dagger culture which entered Korea from adjacent parts of mainland East Asia (Southern Liaoning, Inner Mongolia, and Northern Hebei) and disrupted Rice Farming in Korea for a few centuries, and which are probably clearly connected to the arrival of Koreanic to Korea, finds its roots in the uppermost layers of the Upper Xiajiadian culture. You can find state-of-the-art archaeological interpretations of the Metal Age archaeology of Korea here: https://scholarspace.manoa.hawaii.ed...AP_54.1kim.pdf and here: https://issuu.com/kocis9/docs/20130306_jkaa1/9 (the first chapter of this book). So there is reason to connect Upper Xiajiadian with Korea.
    Are you sure about this? The only UXJD sample I've seen was basically intermediate between MNG_East_N and Amur_EN with no pull towards agriculturalist ancestry, the others from that period were more or less identical to the preceding lower Xiajiadan culture, who do seem quite close to Koreans.

    Its more likely that the UXJD transition is associated with people like the W. Liao river bronze age outlier, who have a profile of people you'd expect to be traveling south along the Kingan mountains.

  13. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by CopperAxe View Post
    Are you sure about this? The only UXJD sample I've seen was basically intermediate between MNG_East_N and Amur_EN with no pull towards agriculturalist ancestry, the others from that period were more or less identical to the preceding lower Xiajiadan culture, who do seem quite close to Koreans.

    Its more likely that the UXJD transition is associated with people like the W. Liao river bronze age outlier, who have a profile of people you'd expect to be traveling south along the Kingan mountains.
    You're talking about the UXJD outlier (Longtoushan_BA_o or Upper_Xiajiadian_o). The others are as I've described, check my sources.
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  14. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryukendo View Post
    Something else I noticed: We know from Ning et al 2020 that the expansion of rice farming from Southern China to Northern China was associated with spread of southeast asian ancestry up North, making the Metal Age Northern Chinese genomes from mixed millet-rice-farmers more Southern than the earlier Yangshao and Hongshan genomes who were almost pure millet farmers. If you look at the ADMIXTURE analysis of Huang et. al. (also on pg 18) who found a "Hlai" component (green) that peaks among Tai-Kradai speakers in Hainan island, all the millet-farming genomes or non-farmers from early Northern China (millet farmers include Hongshan and Yangshao, the latter can include broadly Wuzhuangguoliang, Miaozigou, Qijia etc., non-farmers include the Houli culture samples such as Biabian, Boshan, labeled "Shandong_EN" in the ADMIXTURE) do not have or have very little of the "Hlai" component, but all the late mixed rice-millet farmers from Metal Age China, including the Upper Xiajiadian culture, have really quite a lot of "Hlai". This "Hali" is the Southeast Asian component that increases, not any other type of Southeast Asian ancestry such as Austronesian or Austroasiatic-related ancestry. Large amounts of "Hlai" is also in fact the major difference between the earlier millet-farming Hongshan and later agropastoralists of the Southern Inner Mongolia-Liaoning region. Present-day Japanese and Koreans have a lot of it too.

    The qpGraph analysis of Huang et al (pg 22) models the Hlai genome as an unadmixed descendant of a Southeast Asian branch that contributed to Vietnam_N (Austroasiatic-related ancestry) by admixing with Hoabinhians, Taiwan_Hanben (Austronesian-related ancestry) by admixing with a Jomon-related lineage and Hmong-Mien-related ancestry by admixing with Northeast-Asian-related lineage. Rice-related vocabulary is deeply rooted in Austroasiatic, Hmong-Mien, Austronesian and Tai. It seems like they have detected a type of ancestry that expanded throughout Southeast Asia with the advent of rice farming that is proxied best by modern isolated Tai-Kradai populations from Hainan... I wonder if they'll find such a type of ancestry in early Neolithic populations at the mouth of the Yangtze? That would explain a great deal!
    Some related thoughts: For what its worth, the non-Sinitic linguistic substrate of the Yangtze river delta region seems to be Tai-Kradai-related (see also this) and Vovin identifies Tai-Kradai-related loanwords in proto-Japonic vocabulary.
    Quoted from this Forum:

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    " A Basal Eurasian and an Aurignacian walk into a bar... "

    " No, you are in the wrong... I really hope that you are not jumping on my thread with intent to harass me, just like other "receiving comitee", that unites in classic bullying unity, which makes me sad about such people, deprived of love etc.... "

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