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Thread: Lemba J1-P58

  1. #1
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    Lemba J1-P58

    Lemba origins revisited: Tracing the ancestry of Y chromosomes in South African and Zimbabwean Lemba

    Lemba J1-P58 haplotypes after convertion in FTDNA format (#14, 16, 17, 20 and 21):
    12 23 14 10 13-18 11 16 12 13 11 29
    12 23 14 10 13-19 11 16 12 11 11 29
    12 23 14 10 13-19 11 16 12 13 11 29
    12 24 14 10 16-17 11 16 12 13 13 29
    12 24 14 10 16-18 11 16 12 13 13 29

    Nevgen prediction results:
    14. J1-FGC8216
    16. J1-YP4763
    17. J1-ZS1602
    20 и 21. J1-L817

    The first thing that comes to mind: initial node is J1-CTS9721, no J1-Y3088 lines (speculative Aharon's subclade). Only #14 and #16 speculatively can be traced to J1-YSC0000234 (Y-Abraham). They mostly seem to be of Arabian descent rather than Jewish.

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  3. #2
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    thanks!

    this what bothers me, it feels like sometimes when someone gets J-P58 they immediately claim Israelite ancestry when in reality the majority of said Y-DNA is carried by Arabs
    which is the case of the Lemba, suddenly they say they are Israelites and built Synagogue, and i bet if they do a Big Y-700 95% of them will show with some Arabian tribes in Yemen and elsewhere in the Peninsula who migrated there 2500-2000 years ago

    or sometimes say broadly "Semite" just to avoid their Arabian ancestry

    which is sad to see honestly

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  5. #3
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    The Lemba's claim of Kohanic descent never really made sense, this is something I have been expecting for quite some time now, the conspicuous absence of any Lemba individuals under Z18271 was just further indication of this. Though it is difficult to be sure considering the low resolution here, this picture should hold. Ironically, the only P58 lines which might be Jewish here are L817 and FGC8216, though yet again the low resolution doesn't by any means make this absolutely certain.
    מכורותיך ומולדותיך מארץ הכנעני אביך האמורי ואמך חתית
    יחזקאל פרק טז ג-


    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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  7. #4
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    My opinion is more prosaic. Lemba cultural and genetical differences is the result of coastal contacts with Arabs and formation of Swahili civilisation. Their look like early Arabian migration into deeps of Southern Africa. Specific cultural and religious traditions of Lemba people also can be considered both "Islamic"/"Jewish".

    But I must say that several E-M35 Lemba haplotypes also can be identified as Jewish clades. Absence of BigY make us "fairytale speakers"

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