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Thread: East Med/West Asia and european scores.

  1. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Levantine_Viking View Post
    Thanks. So we can essentially assume east med would be fertile crescent DNA without any steppe and west-euro WHG. Is this why modern Greeks, Bulgarians, and even lombardy show some minor levant, Iran, or BA Anatolian like results to some degree, because it's not necessarily real, but shared neolithic admixture with west asian populations? Thus, some "middle eastern-like" ancestry in modern Europeans could actually be shared ancient proxies that modern levantines and west Asians have?
    Greeks, Bulgarians and Italians have real Iran_N/CHG ancestry, it's not a proxy.

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     dosas (08-03-2021)

  3. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by peloponnesian View Post
    Greeks, Bulgarians and Italians have real Iran_N/CHG ancestry, it's not a proxy.
    and when did this arrive to the balkas - neolithic or post neolithic around BA anatolian? I see bulgarians scoring BA anatolian sometimes on various calcs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by peloponnesian View Post
    Greeks, Bulgarians and Italians have real Iran_N/CHG ancestry, it's not a proxy.
    and further, would this real iran_N and CHG be any connection to the east med / west asian scores on Eurogenes K13?

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     peloponnesian (08-04-2021)

  6. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Levantine_Viking View Post
    What does the East Med and West Asian for Eurogenes represent? Is this an old proxy, ie east med being levantine farmer, and west asian being CHG or kura arexes (chg with a bit of iran component)

    Why do so many Europeans score some west asian and east med on eurogene components, and what time period was this brought into europe? I understand that of course middle easterners score high in West Asian and East Med and depending which north and south they are, (assyrians versus jordanians) there will be a level of Red Sea. But what exactly do these populations represent? It seems the old references for K13 have been thrown out except for the excel sheets. But the highest east med score is around half of leb. druze and yemenite jews. So what would a 100 percent east med person be comprised of and 100 percent west asian person be comprised of, which ancient populations?

    Thanks.

    My K13 breakdown, I am half ashkenazi and half northwest european. I understand my east med and west asia could be recent, within the last 2000 years. But why are albanians, bulgarians, romanians also scoring east med and west asian and where does it come from for them?




    Population
    North_Atlantic 29.41 Pct
    Baltic 16.59 Pct
    West_Med 17.17 Pct
    West_Asian 10.77 Pct
    East_Med 17.09 Pct
    Red_Sea 5.24 Pct
    South_Asian 1.41 Pct
    East_Asian 1.27 Pct
    Siberian -
    Amerindian -
    Oceanian -
    Northeast_African 0.76 Pct
    Sub-Saharan 0.3 Pct
    Components of Gedmatch calculators were based on modern samples. East med is probably Druze, and West asian Georgian, or something along those lines.
    So, they act as Levant IA and Maykop/Kura-Araxes ancestry (since those are similar to Druze and Georgians)

    Older samples like EEfs, CHG, Natufians, shouldn't be interpreted with K13 because it lacks the components to model them properly.

    It's also important to say that gedmatch calcualtors have projection issues.

    Check the Druze and Georgian averages here:
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...#gid=804264822

    Druze and Georgians should in fact score around 100% of East Med and West Asian respectively, but you can see that in practice they score ~50% and a bunch of other components.

    So, because of projection issues East Med and West Asian act as ghost populations, which probably don't correspond 100% to any ancient or modern populations, and always need to be toned down with other components.

    But, these issues affect all samples equally, so K13 can still be used to compare with modern and post-IA/BA samples effectively.

  7. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Levantine_Viking View Post
    and when did this arrive to the balkas - neolithic or post neolithic around BA anatolian? I see bulgarians scoring BA anatolian sometimes on various calcs.
    There were more waves. First there was some Kura Araxes flow in the Chalcholithic into Greece and Southern Bulgaria which created populations like the Minoans.

    In the Iron age the Iran-N/CHG influence is lacking in Croatia, but there is some in Northern Bulgaria and Moldova. It's hard to say when and how it arrived.

    Then there was Levantine and Anatolian migration into Greece in the Hellenistic period, and finally during the Roman Era there was some of this influence wherever the Romans ruled.

    By this time it could've also been spread by Greeks, Thracians and Dacians since they already had some Iran_N/CHG before the Romans.

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  9. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by bce View Post
    There were more waves. First there was some Kura Araxes flow in the Chalcholithic into Greece and Southern Bulgaria which created populations like the Minoans.

    In the Iron age the Iran-N/CHG influence is lacking in Croatia, but there is some in Northern Bulgaria and Moldova. It's hard to say when and how it arrived.

    Then there was Levantine and Anatolian migration into Greece in the Hellenistic period, and finally during the Roman Era there was some of this influence wherever the Romans ruled.

    By this time it could've also been spread by Greeks, Thracians and Dacians since they already had some Iran_N/CHG before the Romans.
    Thanks a lot. This really clears things up a lot. So then, we can assume that East Med + West Asia + Red Sea could all indicate collective near-east type ancestry, that would not otherwise show up on commerical DNA test since these populations occured in the CHL and bronze age and are subdued in modern populations?

  10. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Levantine_Viking View Post
    Thanks a lot. This really clears things up a lot. So then, we can assume that East Med + West Asia + Red Sea could all indicate collective near-east type ancestry, that would not otherwise show up on commerical DNA test since these populations occured in the CHL and bronze age and are subdued in modern populations?
    Actually they do appear. Commercial tests aim to show recent ancestry, but they aren't perfect.

    23andme has an "Italian" and "Balkan" component which peak in Central Italy and Albania, so some South Italian and Greek individuals will get some West Asian, because they have more West Asian than these components can cover. This doesn't mean they have recent West Asian ancestry, it's also mostly from the Roman period.

    At least it used to be like this, maybe it decreased with updates.

  11. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by bce View Post
    There were more waves. First there was some Kura Araxes flow in the Chalcholithic into Greece and Southern Bulgaria which created populations like the Minoans.

    In the Iron age the Iran-N/CHG influence is lacking in Croatia, but there is some in Northern Bulgaria and Moldova. It's hard to say when and how it arrived.

    Then there was Levantine and Anatolian migration into Greece in the Hellenistic period, and finally during the Roman Era there was some of this influence wherever the Romans ruled.

    By this time it could've also been spread by Greeks, Thracians and Dacians since they already had some Iran_N/CHG before the Romans.
    There is no evidence of any Levantine migration into Greece during the Hellenistic period as a matter of fact it was the reverse. When you say Anatolian are you talking a about Greeks living on the coast of Anatolia? If so yes there was probably re-entry into mainland Greece during the post Alexandrian age. The CHG came much earlier.

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  13. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by TonyC View Post
    There is no evidence of any Levantine migration into Greece during the Hellenistic period as a matter of fact it was the reverse. When you say Anatolian are you talking a about Greeks living on the coast of Anatolia? If so yes there was probably re-entry into mainland Greece during the post Alexandrian age. The CHG came much earlier.
    why do cretens and other non mainland greeks hold high MENA content?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Levantine_Viking View Post
    why do cretens and other non mainland greeks hold high MENA content?
    I can't find a lot of info in the literature on population movements during the Hellenistic age, but during Byzantine times, according to the detailed work of Anna Komnenian, there are mentions of West Asian population (re-)settlements, Isaurians, Armenians, White Syrians, Iberians, Christian Kipchaks/Cumans, Alans, Christian Turco-Persians, etc, in Thrace mostly, Macedonia secondary, all the way down to Thessaly, and I assume possibly further down. For Crete, specifically, after the reconquista of 961 AD, Emperor Fokas allowed re-conversions to Christianity for the Levantines and North Africans who survived the purge, and re-settled Pontics and Armenians and even Rus to the island to strengthen the population loyal to the Crown.
    dosas: 56.25% Greek_Macedonia + 43.75% Greek_Trabzon @ 1.769
    wife: 50% English + 50% Irish @ 1.837
    kid1: 56.25% English + 43.75% Greek_Cappadocia @ 1.817
    kid2: 56.25% English_Cornwall + 43.75% Greek_Cappadocia @ 1.866

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