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Thread: Celtic and Italic from the West – the Genetic Evidence

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    Celtic and Italic from the West – the Genetic Evidence

    Celtic and Italic from the West – the Genetic Evidence
    by Tibor Fehér


    1. Introduction
    Celtic studies in the last two decades lead by John T.Koch and Barry Cunliffe have questioned the validity of the long-time theory “Hallstatt Iron Age = proto-Celtic culture”, arguing for an early Celtic Atlantic Bronze Age in their Celtic from the West series.1 The argument goes that Gündlingen type swords originated in the late Bronze Age Britain and Low Countries and have later spread from the West to East to spread further from the Halstatt Alpine Iron Age. The Celtic nature of Tartessian from pre-Iron Age South-Western Iberia also testifies the early Atlantic origin of proto-Celtic. Y-DNA (inherited only through the male line) and autosomal ancient DNA results increasingly support the “Celtic from the West”, going even further this paper argues for an “Italo-Celtic” from the North-West.

    Recent archaeogenetic studies2 proved that R1b-M269 males, today dominant lineage in Central and Western Europe originate from the Pontic-Caspian Steppes that is today’s Ukraine and Southern Russia. A pre-M269 but non-M73 male, i.e. leading from P297 towards M269 ancestor was found in Samara culture on the Volga River living around 5500 BC. It was also confirmed that the Kurgan-building Yamnaya steppe herders and their eastern offshoot Afanasievo culture (probably proto-Tocharian) belonged predominantly to haplogroup R1b-Z2103.

    Later studies clarified that late Proto-Indo-European (“Aryan proper”) language was most likely spoken in the Corded Ware Cultural (CWC) complex (2900-2350 BC). It shows significant Yamnaya-related Western Steppe Herder (WSH) autosomal ancestry, and has geographical subgroups fitting the spread of specific subfamilies. Proto-Indo-Iranians derive from Sintashta culture (2200-1800 BC) coming from the eastern side of CWC Fatyanovo-Balanovo culture (2900-2200 BC), being mostly R1a-Z93 on the paternal line. Proto-Balto-Slavs are the candidate for descending from CWC Middle Dnieper culture (3200-2300 BC) being R1a-Z280 and moving north to replace the Mesolithic Narva culture. Battle Axe culture (2800-2300 BC) is the CWC branch in Scandinavia where R1a-Z284 and I1-M253 prevails, replacing Pitted Ware Mesolithic. Last but not least, Single Grave culture (2800-2200 BC) replaced TRB Neolithic in the North German Plain and Denmark, being ancestral to later Bell Beaker culture from 2500 BC (R1b-L11/P311).

    2. The case of Proto-Celtic homeland


    Linderholm et al. 2020 showed that the R1b-L52>P311 subgroup (leading to U106 and P312) dwelled in Southeast Poland, on the present Ukrainian border in the late Corded Ware culture times, while most other CWC samples from Germany through Northern Poland to Estonia belonged to Hg R1a-M417. These SE Polish CWC samples also exhibit higher genetic afinity to later Bell Beaker culture samples than to CWC remains from other regions. The only CWC group related to this group is the Single Grave Culture in the Lower Rhine-Lower Elbe area. Therefore it is a safe conclusion that P311 ancestors migrated from the PIE homeland through Southeast Poland, north of the Carpathians towards the North Sea coast between 2900 and 2500 BC. This route is autosomally supported by Olade et al. 2017, where they concluded that Bell Beaker samples outside Iberia (exclusively R1b-P312) are an admixture of Yamnaya-related ancestry with North European Neolithic groups (Globular Amphora and Funnelbeaker), without any ancestry from Iberian Neolithic.

    We can conclude that the Corded Ware (CWC) horizon was the source of “autosomally unadmixed late PIE” people, being source of the proto-Italo-Celtic (Single Grave part), proto-Germanic (Battle Axe part), proto-Balto-Slavic (Middle Dnieper part) and proto-Indo-Iranian (Fatyanovo-Balanovo part). Autosomal evidence makes it clear that there is full autosomal continuity in the British Isles, Northern Netherlands and Scandinavia (incl. Denmark) sincethe Bell Beaker and Battle Axe period (as also shown by Y-DNA).

    It should also be noted that R1b-P312 Bell Beakers only appear around 2566 BC inthe Rhineland, as earlier Hégenheim (Alsace) sample from 2800 BC lacks Steppe-ancestry(Olalde 2017) and a 100% Yamnaya individual from Northeast French Salsogne (CBV95) from 2574-2452 BC belongs to the dominant Yamnaya R1b-Z2103 subgroup (Brunel et al.2020). Bearing in mind the above, the autosomal genetic results support the Y-DNA branching observation that L11/P311 is the most diverse in the Lower Rhine-Lower Elbe areawhere U106 and P312 as well as rare brothers S1194 and A8053 could have lived next toeach other around 2800-2500 BC before the P312 branch started the Beaker expansion.

    It is widely known that the paternally the most “Celtic” subgroup, R1b-P312 is most frequent in the Celtic parts of British Isles and in Iberia (above 50%), significant in France 40-50%) and has decreasing frequency towards Central and Eastern Europe. R1b-L21, the typical P312 subgroup in British Isles was found among the earliest Bell Beaker settlers. There is no reasonable scenario to expect a Carpathian Basin–North Alps or Carpathian Basin–Italy migration route for proto-Celtic based on the paternal frequencies of R1b-P312. This is also underlined by autosomal DNA evidence, as shown by early British Bell Beaker samples, as their genetic distance is measured from modern populations3.

    British Isles Bell Beaker samples cluster with modern Northern European populations, whether today Germanic or Celtic speaking. It is also notable that most distances are below 10.00 that means these modern populations are direct autosomal descendant sof Bell Beaker groups, without any admixture break, testifying the North to South and West to East direction of gene flows in the Bronze and Iron Ages.


    3. The spread of Italo-Celtic from the Lower Rhine homeland

    Another important P312 subgroup is R1b-U152, being especially frequent in North Italy and France. The first known U152 positive sample is RISE563 U152+ 22304007 + Bell Beaker (2571–2341 cal BCE, 3955±35 BP, Poz-84553) from Osterhofen-Altenmarkt in Germany. The U152>L2 branch leads the spread of Bell Beakers into the Northern Alps Bohemia and back to Poland, extending down to Budapest along the Danube between 2500 and 2000 BC. An indirect argument for Bohemia and Bavaria being a destination instead of source of Bell Beakers is also high lighted by the homogeneity of P312 in the area (exclusively L2) which mirrors the homogeneity of early Bell Beaker British Isles (exclusivity of L21). If Bohemia was a station along the route from Southeast Poland towards the Lower Rhine, we would see more non-L2 P312 men there. 24th century BC Beaker samples from Budapest/Csepel (e.g. I2786,I2787 and I7043) also testify that Hungary was not the source but the end of Beaker diffusion as here we find “clean CWC-derived” (Celtic/Germanic), direct Steppe-related (Yamnaya without CWC) and Rhaet-Etruscan admixed proto-Illyrian autosomal features. It is visible that the L2 samples got some “Southern” autosomal input as compared to Isles BB and the original U152* sample featuring Scandinavian and Isles autosomal connections.

    Some U152>L2 and most U152>Z56 men reached Southern France travelling up the Rhine and further West of the Alps together with their DF27 cousins to get into Iberia and Liguria/Italy along the Mediterranean coast before 2000 BC. There are two evidences to support that U152 first get into Italy from Liguria instead through the Alps: ancient Ligurian and early (pre-Republic) Latin samples are autosomally close to each other and both exhibit significant Vasconic and Etruscan admixture, while being R1b-P312 on the Y-line. On the other hand, Imperial Roman samples (most likely descending from Eastern Italic peoples) have significant pre-Slavic Balkans admixture (Illyrian, Greek, Minoan) and additional Rhaeto-Etruscan features, indicating that Osco-Umbrian Italics (Villanovans) from the Northeast arrived with a different demographic wave later and with less Celto-Italic genetic afinity than original Western Italics (Latins, West Sicilians and probably Ligures). This means that proto-Italics were already mixing with Late Neolithic “Rhaet-Etruscan-type”populations North of the Alps and then some Italics getting to Liguria/Latium/Sicily on a Western Alpine route getting Aquitani/Vascon admixture, and East Italics getting into the Carpathian basin getting Illyro-Thracian admixture in addition to the Etruscan. Fernandes et al. 2020 concluded that Sicily and Sardinia got Steppe pastoralist related genetic influx between 2200-2000 BC partly from Iberia and the Balearic Islands, before Nuraghic and Greek-related Middle Eastern influx reached them from 1900 BC.

    Therefore, I argue that we need to refine Anthony’s idea of an Italo-Celtic identity of early Carpathian Basin Yamnaya groups, which rather could have brought Illyro-Thracians to the North of the Balkans, where they later expand through Vucedol. At the same time, Usatovo and Ezero cultures could sign the spread of proto-Anatolians instead of proto-Germanics. The Italo-Celtic homeland can be firmly set in the North German Plain/Lower Rhine area based on Y-DNA and autosomal DNA evidence.


    4. Conclusions

    • Proto-Italo-Celtic speakers (Y-DNA R1b-P311) migrated from present-day Ukraine through South-East Poland to the Lower Rhine area between 2900 and 2500 BC, identified by the Single Grave Culture belonging to the Corded Ware horizon.

    • The Bell Beaker culture formed around 2500 BC in present-day Netherlands / NW Germany, spreading with R1b-P312 males between 2500 and 2000 BC to the British Isles (later Proto-Celtic, R1b-L21), to Iberia and Southern France (Liguro-Latin-Sicel R1b-DF27 and R1b-Z56), to Denmark and Scania (R1b-U106, later basis for West Germanic) and to the Northern Alps-Bohemia-Poland (R1b-L2, later Osco-Umbrian and from Halstatt to the East “Gelonian/Scythian”)

    • Autosomal DNA proves that unadmixed Italo-Celtic and Germanic populations lived in Corded Ware Culture, while in the Northern Alps and the Carpathian Basin non-IE autosomal components (Rhaeto-Etruscan, Vasconic) have significant presence well into the Late Bronze Age / Early Iron Age.

    • “Royal Scythians” (Gelonians) are autosomally Eastern Gauls in the 6th-3rd centuries BC in the Carpathian Basin and Ukraine, showing the Easternmost limit of the spread of Celts after Halstatt C. Preceding Cimmerians and following Sarmatians have Steppe Nomadic ancestry, mainly Iranian but partly also Caucasian and Turkic.

    • Italic languages are not coherent as such. There was a first wave from the Western direction into Italy bringing Ligurian, Latin and probably Sicel at the same time Lusitanian (directly from Britain) and proto-Tartessian (through Catalonia) reached Iberia. Later, there was a second migration from the Carpathian Basin/Alps in Urnfield-Villanovan times to Italy: Etruscan speakers splitting Ligurians and Latins and Illyrian-influenced Osco-Umbrians spreading along the Adriatic coast.





    1: Celtic from the West 2. Rethinking the Bronze Age and the Arrival of Indo-European in Atlantic Europe. Ed. by John T. Koch and Barry Cunliffe. Oxbow Books, Oxford, UK, 2013.

    2: See Haak et al. 2015, Allentoft et al. 2015, Mathieson et al. 2018 etc. It is not the aim of this study to analyse other IE-branches in depth, therefore it assumes that the reader accepts the aDNA evidence as described here or will read further about them.

    3: https://mytrueancestry.com/en Ask the author for detailed data table and map.

    https://www.academia.edu/49884168/Ce...LiW6BDICGEIfBg
    Last edited by AlfonsoVIII; 07-29-2021 at 12:24 PM.

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    Nice overview, but I want to make another shift.

    I guess the Celts-Italic component can be traced to the post Beaker network. More precise:

    Koch 2020:

    Within the CWC area, the dialect shift that Ringe at al.2002 envision for Pre-Germanic on purely linguistic evidence has an analogue in archaeology. ~2500 BC the Beaker phenomenon entered the CWC area from the west and henceforth interacted and partly fused with CWC in West-central Europe, in a zone extending as far east as the Middle Danube. By ~2300 BC the Beaker package reached Jutland.67 These ‘Beakerized’ regions henceforth had more attenuated contact with non-Beakerized CWC to the east. They entered a cultural sphere with western neighbours, including the Iberian Peninsula, Northern Italy, parts of France, and Britain and Ireland (cf. Van der Linden 2007).

    Linguistically, these developments suggest an intensification of contacts towards Pre-Italo-Celtic and reduction of contacts with Pre- Balto-Slavic/Indo-Iranian. Now confronting the evidence that most CG words are not detectable as loanwords, it seems likely that Pre- Germanic and Pre-Italo-Celtic simply continued to be close long into the Bronze Age. That state of affairs continued to the time when copper from the Atlantic façade was traded to Scandinavia. That scenario would be more economical than supposing that contact between Scandinavia and the West ended in the post-Beaker Early Bronze Age then picked up again in the Late Bronze Age. A model of continuing contact with the post-Beaker West is also consistent with evidence of copper from Wales coming to Scandinavia in the period ~2000–1400 BC (Nørgaard et al. 2019).

    Nørgaard e.a. 2021:
    The direct Scandinavian access to the Carpathian basin and the Transdanubian plains that was opened up by the Unetice collapse c. 1600 BC increased importance in the sixteenth century BC as signs of contact appear with tell settlements in the Koszider period (Fårdrup-Hajdu ́sámso Sögel metalwork) and the earliest Middle Danube tumulus groups in Bronze Age
    Shortly the EBA Middle Danube groups.


    These groups went southwards, passed the Alps, to create the BA Polada culture.

    See this lecture by archaeologist Andrea Cardarelli (Sapienza University Rome), from 2018, from the relevant passage (about 6:50):



    These groups showed also up along the North Sea Coast, there was an in EBA an elite migration to the North Sea area. They founded the Sögel Wohlde Culture.

    In a concise publication about Sögel-Wohlde by Ernst Probst (2011) we encounter the 'princess of Fallingbostel' in full regalia:


    This costume can be directly related to the costume of the middle Danubian, Gata-Wieselburg culture (Probst: 'in niederösterreichisch-westungarischer Tracht').


    Šabatová et al (2020):
    In the Early Bronze Age (between 2500/2400 and 2000 BC), we can observe a transformation that probably grew out of the contact of a southern, Balkan, and a north-western and central European network within the Carpathian Basin. From this time onward, contact with the north-west and the south assumed a greater importance, with the Danube acting as the main axis of communication. The background of these connections, an invisible world of concepts, ideas and innovations, can be revealed through thorough analyses, in which network studies play a key role.

    (Sögel Wohlde in red by Finn)


    Although the Northwest Block theory is nowadays considered outdated, this does not mean that Kuhn and Gysseling completely missed the point in the 1960s.

    Italic
    Kuhn has in, Völker zwischen Kelten und Germanen (1962), an interesting perspective:

    Among the names and vocabulary that have left our area as pre-residents, however, so much is Indo-European that the language at least a large part of the pre-Geman settlers, but probably everything, belonged to this large family of languages ​​and thus both Germanic and Celtic must have been closely related, particularly closely, it seems, the Italian branch (pag 127)
    The Russian linguist Kuzmenko (expert in North Germanic) has ‘updated’ the influence of Italic, it ‘s an interesting study, and the conclusions/summary (in English) are crystal clear:

    “Summary. Kuzmenko Yu. K. Implications of common Germanic-Italic innovations:
    A great number of Germano-Italic innovations in vocabulary, word formation, phonology and morphology (in particular, exclusive innovations) indicate close language contacts that took place in the period of the formation of Proto Germanic and Proto-Italic languages ​​(2000–1000 BC). In this article, both traditionally established, and new common Italic-Germanic innovations are analysed. The common Italic-Celtic and Italic-Germanic exclusive innovations show that Proto-Italic must be placed between Proto-Germanic and Proto-Celtic. The precise geographical spreading of Proto-Italic can be reconstructed according to Kuhn's hypothesis about the so-called “tribes of the north-western block”, which were spread across a territory between the Celtic and Germanic peoples in the north-western part of modern Germany (between the rivers Ems and Elbe). The greater number of Germanic-Oscan-Umbian innovations compared with the Latino-Faliscan innovations shows that the ancestors of the Oskans and Umbrians had a longer period of contact with the ancestors of the Germanic people. If one compares these facts with the two archaeologically established waves of Italic invasion in Italy, one can propose that the first wave consisted of Latino-Faliscan (1300 BC) and the second wave, of Oscan Umbrian people (900 BC).
    Archaeological findings do not contradict the assumption about the formation of Italic innovations on the territory of modern northwestern Germany and about the existence of Italo-Germanic and Italo-Celtic contact zones on the northern and southern borders of the proposed Proto-Italic homeland. They indicate the existence of archaeological cultures which differ both from the cultures which were traditionally connected with the ancestors of the Germanic peoples and from the Celtic cultures. The archaeological correspondence to the region where Proto-Italic was being formed shows that this could be the culture of Sögel-Wohlde (1800–1000 BC) and other preceding archaeological cultures of the area.”
    https://iling.spb.ru/pdf/alp/alp_VII_1.pdf

    Incidentally, Kuzmenko is not alone with the alleged Germanic-Italian kinship.

    Wolfram Euler, in Sprache und Herkunft der Germanen (2009):
    'If one does not assume that for all Italian-Germanic matches there are Celtic equivalents, then the finding suggests that the speakers of these both Proto-languages ​​before their separation were in the neighborhood, slightly south and north of the Ore Mountains, settled (p. 25).
    The linguist KH Schmidt already stated in 1984 that Italic and Germanic uniquely share the word for 'copper, bronze' (Latin aes ~ Gothic aiz, Old Norse eir, Old High German ēr), while Germanic and Celtic uniquely share the word for iron: *īsarno- 'iron'. This would parallel the connections in the Bronze and Iron Ages.

    Kuzmenko uses an image in his paper that forms a nice bridge towards genetics. Kuzmenko (2011), showing the Sögel-Wohlde culture in red:
    free image hosting


    So obviously in EBA there were 'post Beaker' groups, from the middle Danubian area, that spoke a kind of "Italo-Celtic" that left it traces obviously in Italy but also along the North Sea Coast.
    Last edited by Finn; 08-02-2021 at 04:41 PM.

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    Well, I don't agree at all having conclusions on linguistic matters or assigning linguistic labels to genetic categories or haplogroups without involving linguistic data; connecting the spread of Celtic into Britain to L21 or interpreting the U152 diversity in Italy as evidence of an incoherent character of Italic goes way to fast.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pylsteen View Post
    Well, I don't agree at all having conclusions on linguistic matters or assigning linguistic labels to genetic categories or haplogroups without involving linguistic data; connecting the spread of Celtic into Britain to L21 or interpreting the U152 diversity in Italy as evidence of an incoherent character of Italic goes way to fast.
    I think you got a point there, nevertheless an EBA 'warrior elite migration' from the middle Danube to the Po-Valley and the North Sea that left it traces in language....probably also left a genetic footprint.....

    From the biggest Sögel-Wohlde grave we know, Drouwen, Drenthe North Dutch:

    Golden spiral rings
    The 'chieftain of Drouwen' is buried in the most important grave of the Sögel-Wohlde culture. This considerableness is underlined by the presence of two gold:

    spiral rings. And yes….'In Northern Italy, two small gold wire spiral rings were found in an EBA fossa grave cemetery near Verona, at Gazzo Veronese'.

    The resemblance is striking (see spiral ring at the top):

    https://journals.openedition.org/archeosciences/2066


    I suspect a connection with the founder effect of R1b U106, but may be the 'post Beaker' influence from the Danube is a kind of reflux, so hard to say when exactly R1b U106 became part of the Beaker network.

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    The "Italo-Celtic" traces in (NW) Germanic (Ingvaeonic/ North Sea Germanic).

    By Kuzmenko 2011


    Link with EBA middle Danube
    “specific linguistic features that characterize the Italians- branch, were created earlier than the speakers of the languages ​​of this branch
    settled in Italy ”(Tronsky 2001: 28), and that the Italic language penetrated the Apennine Peninsula from the north, from the middle
    the Danube (Hecken 1955: 26; Martinet 1996-1997: 307). Moreover the first wave of Italians already familiar with bronze appeared here in
    the beginning of the second millennium BC e. and brought the culture to Terramare, and the second around the end of the second millennium at the beginning of the Iron Age
    brought the culture of Villanov (Kovalev 1986: 41–42; Heuss 1998: 1–
    2).

    Battle gear
    sacena <* sakesna ‘ritual knife’, germ. * saxsa ‘knife’;
    lat. sparus, drisl. spjör, drvn. sper ‘spear’;
    lat. arcus ‘bow’, goth. arhwazna,
    drisl. ör, drangl. earh ‘arrow’

    Particularly interesting are the German-Italic correlations denoting weapons: "knife", "bow / arrow", "spear",which may date back to the Stone Age. In many cases roots from the German-Italic lexical parallels are in other Indo-European languages, but only Germanic and Italian show a similar semantic development of these roots.
    Not to forget that Saxon is an umbrella name for tribes of NW Germany in the Dark Ages!

    Ambrons
    Moreover, it is possible that in the northernmost regions, the wanderings of the Sögel-Wolde culture in Schleswig, Holstein and
    Lower Saxony was spoken also in Germanic, and in the southwest the area of ​​dissemination of the culture of the "Northern Circle" in particular in
    the cultural distribution area of ​​Stade (between the Weser and Elbe), which belongs to the culture of the "northern circle" (Рrobst
    1996: 196) could speak Italian as well. Exactly these contact areas and could be centers of German-Italic contacts.
    The German-Italian contact zone covered not only the most northwest Germany, but also the North Frisian Islands, where the name Amrum Islands, possibly retaining the tribal name ambrons, may indicate a connection with umber. The question of ethnic the identity of the Ambrons, former western neighbors Cimbri and Teutons in the North Frisian Islands and the Northwest Jutland is unclear. They are considered both Germans, Celts, and Germanic lower Celts. However, it is possible that its tribal the name ambrona has been retained since the time when the northwest central Europe was occupied by the Italians (tribes of the northwestern Kuhn block). We also find the name Ambrones among the Ligurs. Plutarch reports that at the Battle of Aqua Sextia (102 BC), in which the Ambrons were allies of the Teutons, and the Ligurs were allies Rome, the Ligurians echoed the battle cry of the Ambrons Ambrones, form, which could go back to the form * Ombr-

    *teuta
    A number of common innovations are found between German and Osco-Umbrian group of Italic languages, cf., for example, absent-
    in Latin Osco-Umbrian forms toutō- ‘people’, treb- ‘to inhabit’, uend- ‘to turn’ (Tronsky 2001: 33)
    Imo this is quite inportant because words like Teutonic, Deutsch, Dutch are derived from, it's how the 'germanics' described themselves.

    By Kuhn 1962


    Guus Kroonen mentions some *p words.



    *K/C in personal names that were not part of the consonant shift to h/g
    These lower-german personal names have an equivalent in Latin; Albuc, Asic,Udic, in Latin Albicus, Asicius Udicasius.

    Place name with *st like beneath the alps Alista, Ateste, Segesta are quite common in the Sögel-Wohlde/ NW block area (map 16 Kuhn 1962):
    Last edited by Finn; 08-02-2021 at 05:44 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    The Russian linguist Kuzmenko (expert in North Germanic) has ‘updated’ the influence of Italic, it ‘s an interesting study, and the conclusions/summary (in English) are crystal clear:

    “Summary. Kuzmenko Yu. K. Implications of common Germanic-Italic innovations:
    https://iling.spb.ru/pdf/alp/alp_VII_1.pdf

    Incidentally, Kuzmenko is not alone with the alleged Germanic-Italian kinship.

    Wolfram Euler, in Sprache und Herkunft der Germanen (2009):


    The linguist KH Schmidt already stated in 1984 that Italic and Germanic uniquely share the word for 'copper, bronze' (Latin aes ~ Gothic aiz, Old Norse eir, Old High German ēr), while Germanic and Celtic uniquely share the word for iron: *īsarno- 'iron'. This would parallel the connections in the Bronze and Iron Ages.

    Kuzmenko uses an image in his paper that forms a nice bridge towards genetics. Kuzmenko (2011), showing the Sögel-Wohlde culture in red:
    free image hosting


    So obviously in EBA there were 'post Beaker' groups, from the middle Danubian area, that spoke a kind of "Italo-Celtic" that left it traces obviously in Italy but also along the North Sea Coast.
    Very interesting. Precisely the Italian historian Adriano Romualdi spoke of the similarities that he noted between Proto-Germanics and Proto-Italics in his essay Gli Indoeuropei: Origine e Migrazioni:

    The inscriptions of Val Camonica attest to a dialect of the Latin-Falisco type, confined to an Alpine valley and a residue of the Italic migration. The term tiez is found again in the Latin dies, Iuvila in Julius (from Dyowlios), sanquos (genitive) in Sancus, ancient divinity, and titus (dative) in tiro: a Camuna inscription such as Titus Sanquos "genius Sancus", can be directly compared with the Faliscan inscriptions of the type titoi mercui «genius Mercui». In Val Camonica itself, the rock inscriptions present surprising analogies with the Swedish rock inscriptions: not only do the same symbols appear, the same figures (the sun pulling for deer, the "ax-bearer", the "spear-bearer" - the ancient figures of Odin or Thor or the Latin Mars) but also an identical style that sculpts the figures as "bearing figures" that is linked to the "tectonic" mentality of the North. Altheim (1940, 24-25) writes: «In Bohuslän, in Ostergötland and in Val Camonica the grace of lines is renounced; this is avoided without ambiguity, while the profile is filled in and the bare profile is replaced by the ságoma. Likewise, the transitions are less pronounced and the details drawn more strongly. The limbs and the torso, the head and the horns are clearly distinguished and highlighted in their specific form ... the man, who is almost completely missing in the rock inscriptions of the northwestern Iberian Peninsula, holds the main place in the Scandinavian North and in the Val Camonica. The difficult structuring of the human figure, which for the first time tries to make the joints stand out, conceived as decisive elements for the composition, makes the inscriptions of Indo-European origins appear as precursors of the geometric art of Greece, at least as parts of a same gender ”.

    Some Latin words are related only to Old Norse: Latin os is comparable to Norse oss river mouth; the Latin annus with the gothic athn; the Latin sanctus with the Nordic sattr (disanthaz); the Latin longaevus with the Nordic longaer. These terms directly link Scandinavia with Lazio, without the mediation of the rest of the Germanic world. Rudolf Much, who has underlined this fact (Much 1936, 549), has emphasized that both Latin auster and Norwegian Austr indicate the south and not the west as in the rest of the Indo-European languages, which would be explained in Norway due to the special orientation of the valleys. This same author has recalled that among the Heruli of Odoacer there were also rugios, originally from Norway, wondering if something similar did not happen at the time of the Latin migration. A Nordic ship is carved out of the Camunan rocks, the resemblance of Latin and Germanic seafaring vocabulary having often been observed. The name of the deer, the solar animal of Sweden and Val Camonica, appears in the name of the Brenta and the Messapic Brindisi through the Illyrian brundon, which can be related to the Norwegian brund and the Swedish brind "fawn." The name of the Adda, a river close to the Val Camonica that flows into the Po in the area of ​​the terramaras, is comparable to the old name of the Oder (Ouiadoúas de vi-adu-as) and in a subafluent Adda of the Sprea. It is not difficult to imagine that delightful groups of the Nordic Bronze have traced the course of the Oder with their ships, mingling with the grosse Wanderung.

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     Finn (08-02-2021)

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    Koch 2020:

    From ~2800 BC gene flow from Yamnaya at the founding of CWC in Northern Europe points to mass migration of Post-Tocharian Indo-European speakers. This created the setting for a dialect chain ancestral to Germanic, Balto-Slavic, and Indo-Iranian.

    From ~2500 BC the entry of Beaker people with steppe ancestry into CWC Central Europe caused the dialect ancestral to Germanic to come closely into contact with the dialect(s) ancestral to Italic and Celtic. Contact between Pre-Germanic and the dialects ancestral to Balto-Slavic and Indo-Iranian diminished.

    After ~1800–1500 BC the proposed time frame for the separation of Pre-Celtic from Proto-Italic (§21) predates the formation of most of the words comprising the 173-word CG subset. These words lack Italic cognates by definition, indicating that contact of Proto-Italic with Pre-Celtic and Pre-Germanic had fallen off.80
    The split of Proto-Italo-Celtic into Pre-Italic and Pre-Celtic is provisionally identified with the breakup of the Beaker culture into diverse post-Beaker Early Bronze Age cultures ~2000/1800 BC. The latter date of the above range (~1500 BC) allows
    time for the separate Pre-Celtic to develop new vocabulary, absent from Italic, during a period of rising social complexity
    and technological advance. On the social side, the rise of the professional warrior and warrior ideal are notable (Vandkilde 2014; Kristiansen 2018). Especially important technological advances spreading widely and catalysing social change at this time are what I have called the ‘three strands’ of the Bronze Age: standardized high-tin bronze, the horse and chariot package, and advanced seafaring (Koch 2013a).
    The modification in line with Kuzmenko (2011), Schmidt (1984), Kuhn (1961) would be that the 'breakup of the Beaker culture into diverse post-Beaker Early Bronze Age cultures ~2000/1800 BC' was not a break up but a period of intens contact even an elite (warrior) migration from the middle Danube to the Po Valley (Terramare/ Polada) and the North Sea Coast (Sögel-Wohlde). This has left it linguistic traces in both area's as well.

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     AlfonsoVIII (08-03-2021)

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    Your linguistics discussion is above my pay grade. But I’m looking at my genetics and the tree there is a clear break from
    Finland/Sweden to France/England from BY3604 to our R-Z275. If you look at the block on Ytree the surnames are telling.
    I enjoy your theories and banter. Cheers to you all and here’s to hoping for more ancient samples being logged to split blocks and make things more clear based on grave evidence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hadleyro View Post
    Your linguistics discussion is above my pay grade. But I’m looking at my genetics and the tree there is a clear break from
    Finland/Sweden to France/England from BY3604 to our R-Z275
    . If you look at the block on Ytree the surnames are telling.
    I enjoy your theories and banter. Cheers to you all and here’s to hoping for more ancient samples being logged to split blocks and make things more clear based on grave evidence.
    Could you be more explicit? I have a particular interest in this precise topic Capture.JPG
    En North alom, de North venom
    En North fum naiz, en North manom

    (Roman de Rou, Wace, 1160-1170)

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    And with regard to the topic, a nice quote of David Anthony:
    The widely separated pockets of Yamnaya settlement in the lower Danube valley and the Balkans established speakers of late Proto–Indo–European dialects in scattered islands where, if they remained isolated from one another, they could have differentiated over centuries into various Indo–European languages. The many thousands of Yamnaya kurgans in eastern Hungary suggest a more continuous occupation of the landscape by a larger population of immigrants, one that could have acquired power and prestige partly just through its numerical weight. This regional group could have spawned both pre–Italic and pre–Celtic. Bell Beaker sites of the Csepel type around Budapest, west of the Yamnaya settlement region, are dated about 2800–2600 BCE. They could have been a bridge between Yamnaya on their east and Austria/Southern Germany to their west, through which Yamnaya dialects spread from Hungary into Austria and Bavaria, where they later developed into Proto–Celtic.31
    Pre–Italic could have developed among the dialects that remained in Hungary, ultimately spreading into Italy through the Urnfield and Villanovan cultures. Eric Hamp and others have revived the argument that Italic and Celtic shared a common parent, so a single migration stream could have contained dialects that later were ancestral to both.32 Archaeologically, however, the Yamnaya immigrants here, as elsewhere, left no lasting material impression except their kurgans.
    I would add that Danubian EBA already did the spread to the Po Valley (Terramare/Polada) and the North Sea Coast (Sögel-Wohlde).
    The elite (warrior) migrations from the EBA Danube cultures (Gata Wieselburg) did (imo) also the Italo-Celtic "language job"!

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