Page 30 of 32 FirstFirst ... 202829303132 LastLast
Results 291 to 300 of 319

Thread: The genetic origin of Daunians and the Pan-Mediterranean southern Italian Iron Age

  1. #291
    Registered Users
    Posts
    382
    Sex

    Quote Originally Posted by R.Rocca View Post
    J2b is extremely likely. The R-M269 that is Z2103+ is certainly very possible, but obviously not the R-M269 that is R-P312. I-M223 has been in Italy for a long time though.
    I wasn't referring to R-P312 at all because it's not dated, but it's not possible for it to have reached Italy via Balkan migrations either way.

  2. #292
    Registered Users
    Posts
    357
    Sex

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruzmi View Post
    Mataruga is a tribe from northern Albania/Montenegro. Mataranga is a region of south-central Albania which was used as a surname for many different families (the feudal Mataranga family had no male heirs and was inherited by the Muzaka by 1372). You're mixing totally unrelated regions, families etc. The origin of this confusion on ex-Yugoslav internet fora (the only place it actually exists) is an author from Serbia who was obviously very unfamiliar with Albanian geography.
    Mataranga was a feudal family obviously. Mataruga was not from Albania but parts of Montenegro, and I have all information about them, including all of their members throughout history just as I do for all tribes from the area.
    Terms Mataranga and Mataruga are certainly connected, because the former reflects a phonetic change which occurred in Serbian by the 10th century. Origin of the term doesn't seem from Albanian language though.


    Quote Originally Posted by Bruzmi View Post
    "Real and reliable" results are published. Everything you say about "E-V13 dominated Thracians" is based on no actual data. When we get results about E-V13, we'll discuss about it.
    It is actual data because it was leaked, and it is not the only data also. Btw. what is your haplogroup? I seem to remember didn't know..

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruzmi View Post
    The only place one is reading about the "Bessi theory" these days is on internet fora because: From a linguistic point of view it emerges that the Thracian-Bessian hypothesis of the origin of Albanian should be rejected, since only very little comparative linguistic material is available (the Thracian is attested only marginally, while the Bessian is completely unknown), but at the same time the individual phonetic history of Albanian and Thracian clearly indicates a very different sound developement that cannot be considered as the result of one language. Furthermore, the Christian vocabulary of Albanian is mainly Latin, which speaks against the construct of a "Bessian church language".[16] The elite of the Bessi tribe was gradually Hellenized.[17][18] Low level of borrowings from Greek in the Albanian language is a further argument against the identification of Albanian with the Bessi.[19]


    You really should update your sources. The Daunians were a Messapic-speaking people. The Messapian language is closely linked to Albanian, exactly because they come from the same populations patrilineally. To get back to the paper about Daunians, what the presence of J2b-L283, R1b-M269 and possibly I-M223 showed is that the linguistic connection between Messapian and Albanian is related to population flows from the Balkans to Italy.
    I am more than aware of what Daunians spoke.

    My main point was to say that Bessi survived the Roman rule..

    I do not mention Bessi theory as particularly plausible, one reason is it too much of an accident for Albanians to call themselves the way they do. Scrhramm hypothesized that Bessi took the name of the Arbanon region.

    Nevertheless we do have epigraphic evidence of two inhabitants of Albanopolis and they are in early 2nd century AD "Thracoid" and Brygian, not Illyrian, even though there are at the same time a number of typical Illyrian names in Dyrrachium, Skampa, Scodra etc. So there is something going on with Albanopolis based on this evidence, and Albanians are being directly connected not to Dyrrachium, Skampa, Scodra but to the Albanopolis. This was started by Papazoglu, and was continued by Romanian authors.
    Last edited by Moderator; 08-04-2021 at 03:28 AM. Reason: eliminated ad hominem

  3. The Following User Says Thank You to Huban For This Useful Post:

     levantino II (08-04-2021)

  4. #293
    Registered Users
    Posts
    3,958
    Sex
    Location
    USA
    Ethnicity
    Italo-Iberian
    Nationality
    American
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-U152+L2+FGC10543
    mtDNA (M)
    H4a1-T152C!

    United States of America Italy 1861-1946 Spain
    Quote Originally Posted by Bruzmi View Post
    I wasn't referring to R-P312 at all because it's not dated, but it's not possible for it to have reached Italy via Balkan migrations either way.
    The R-P312 sample is archeologically dated to 650 - 625 BC, but either way, we agree.
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543 >> PR5365, Pietro Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

  5. #294
    Registered Users
    Posts
    382
    Sex

    Quote Originally Posted by Huban View Post
    Mataranga was a feudal family obviously. Mataruga was not from Albania but parts of Montenegro, and I have all information about them, including all of their members throughout history just as I do for all tribes from the area.
    Terms Mataranga and Mataruga are certainly connected, because the former reflects a phonetic change which occurred in Serbian by the 10th century. Origin of the term doesn't seem from Albanian language though.
    Both names are Mat- (river bank) derivatives as in the hydronym Mat recorded by Roman writer Vibius Sequester (4th or 5th century AD) as Mathis. It predates the Avar-Slavic migrations.

    When results are published about any haplogroup and the context in which these samples were acquired becomes clear, discuss about them with certainty.

    Quote Originally Posted by Huban View Post


    My main point was to say that Bessi survived the Roman rule..
    Of course they did biologically as many other tribes in the Balkans. The descendants of the Bessi in the Byzantine era were hellenized and would be indistinguishable from other Byzantine Greeks.


    I'm not going to reply to the rest as it's off-topic but I'll just say that this inscription was found in Scupi and they're considered to be descendants of migrants from southern Illyria as the archaeologist who published it herself wrote. The rest about "Brygoid" theories belong to the realm of internet theorizing.

  6. The Following User Says Thank You to Bruzmi For This Useful Post:

     excine (08-04-2021)

  7. #295
    Registered Users
    Posts
    424
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    Greek
    Nationality
    Australian
    Y-DNA (P)
    J2a
    mtDNA (M)
    J1

    Australia Greece Byzantine Empire
    Quote Originally Posted by xripkan View Post
    E-V13 in Cyprus is considered to be about 10% according to this research https://journals.plos.org/plosone/ar...l.pone.0179474

    I agree that E-V13 peaked among the Thracian tribes but the existence of E-V13 in Cyprus is an indication it existed among ancient Greeks as well. How else could be explained the existence of a native Balkanic haplogroup in Cyprus?
    Here is the proportions of each clade taken directly from the FTDNA haplotree:



    However, please note that most E1b1b in Cyprus is not E-V13. Same thing applies for other countries here. In fact, when I looked at only confirmed E-V13, almost all of those countries percentages fell dramatically except for Kosovo, Albania & Montenegro, whose percentages barely changed at all. For example, Greece fell below 8% and Cyprus below 6%. Maybe someone more familiar with the FTDNA haplotree can explain this phenomenon, but is it possible that E-V13 has been overestimated in certain countries because all E1b1b has been assumed to be E-V13?
    Code:
    23abc_AncestryDNA_scaled,0.110408,0.151314,-0.0290383,-0.0507112,0.0018465,-0.0156179,-0.00305514,-0.00138456,-0.00899905,0.00911181,0.00243583,-0.00149867,-0.00431116,0.00344057,-0.00773606,0.00106072,0.00195576,0.00152026,0.00251396,-0.00550264,-0.00786113,-0.00197844,0.0025882,0.00168699,0.000957998

  8. The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to 23abc For This Useful Post:

     Andrewid (08-04-2021),  Bruzmi (08-04-2021),  digital_noise (08-04-2021),  dosas (08-04-2021),  xripkan (08-04-2021)

  9. #296
    Registered Users
    Posts
    382
    Sex

    Quote Originally Posted by R.Rocca View Post
    The R-P312 sample is archeologically dated to 650 - 625 BC, but either way, we agree.
    Is it? The one I'm reading is: ORD011 Ordona not dated 0.0889 XY H1e R1b-P312 116,800

  10. #297
    Registered Users
    Posts
    3,958
    Sex
    Location
    USA
    Ethnicity
    Italo-Iberian
    Nationality
    American
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-U152+L2+FGC10543
    mtDNA (M)
    H4a1-T152C!

    United States of America Italy 1861-1946 Spain
    Quote Originally Posted by Bruzmi View Post
    Is it? The one I'm reading is: ORD011 Ordona not dated 0.0889 XY H1e R1b-P312 116,800
    ORD011 in supplementary spreadsheet "Data S1", tab "A", rows 17 & 18 are archeologically dated to 650-625 BC.
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543 >> PR5365, Pietro Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

  11. The Following User Says Thank You to R.Rocca For This Useful Post:

     Bruzmi (08-04-2021)

  12. #298
    Registered Users
    Posts
    2,634
    Sex

    Quote Originally Posted by 23abc View Post
    Here is the proportions of each clade taken directly from the FTDNA haplotree:

    However, please note that most E1b1b in Cyprus is not E-V13. Same thing applies for other countries here. In fact, when I looked at only confirmed E-V13, almost all of those countries percentages fell dramatically except for Kosovo, Albania & Montenegro, whose percentages barely changed at all. For example, Greece fell below 8% and Cyprus below 6%. Maybe someone more familiar with the FTDNA haplotree can explain this phenomenon, but is it possible that E-V13 has been overestimated in certain countries because all E1b1b has been assumed to be E-V13?
    Like suggested here, there are two problems with this statistic, one being many testers not testing deeper, so they could still end up in E-V13 probably, the other is the fairly high proportion of people with non-local ethnic origin, especially Ashkenazi Jewish:
    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post789614

    The numbers for e.g. J1 prove that too. So its hard to say for every region, based on the FTDNA numbers provided, how much of the non-V13 E1b1b is local or Jewish in origin. And while some Jewish lineages might be of local origin too, most are not, especially in crucial places for the debate like Romania, Slovakia, Moldova, Ukraine, Russia and Poland among others.

  13. #299
    Banned
    Posts
    121
    Sex
    Location
    Canada
    Ethnicity
    Albanian, South-Gheg
    Y-DNA (P)
    E-V13
    mtDNA (M)
    H
    Y-DNA (M)
    Martini (untested)

    Albania
    What Rumored North. Albanian samples? Is there a reference to read more?
    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Interesting opinion on your last paragraph. What do you make of the rumored N. Albania samples though? They seem not to fit that theory.

  14. #300
    Registered Users
    Posts
    736
    Y-DNA (P)
    R-Z93>R-YP4768
    mtDNA (M)
    J1c

    Quote Originally Posted by 23abc View Post
    Here is the proportions of each clade taken directly from the FTDNA haplotree:



    However, please note that most E1b1b in Cyprus is not E-V13. Same thing applies for other countries here. In fact, when I looked at only confirmed E-V13, almost all of those countries percentages fell dramatically except for Kosovo, Albania & Montenegro, whose percentages barely changed at all. For example, Greece fell below 8% and Cyprus below 6%. Maybe someone more familiar with the FTDNA haplotree can explain this phenomenon, but is it possible that E-V13 has been overestimated in certain countries because all E1b1b has been assumed to be E-V13?
    For Cyprus 6% makes sense. For Greece 8% is too low I think. Do we know how representative of the Greek population is this sample? I mean people in the islands must have less E-V13 so if they are overpresented in that sample they drop the actual percentage.

    I remember user Scorcelow had gathered data about the yDNA of Peloponnesians. In Laconia E-V13 was 24% (for a sample consisted of 62 families) and in Arcadia 19% (for a sample consisted of 46 families). Checking my own matches at 23andme I get similar results. However my matches are mostly from Peloponnese and other regions of mainland Greece.
    Distance: 2.2672% / 0.02267223
    Target: Christos_scaled
    78.1 update_Peloponnese(Lakonia+Arkadia+older academic samples)
    21.9 Greek_Thessaly

  15. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to xripkan For This Useful Post:

     23abc (08-04-2021),  Claudio (08-11-2021)

Page 30 of 32 FirstFirst ... 202829303132 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Were Iron Age Celts North Italian-like?
    By Echo in forum Ancient (aDNA)
    Replies: 345
    Last Post: 11-22-2020, 09:31 PM
  2. Replies: 8
    Last Post: 03-11-2019, 11:14 AM
  3. Replies: 2
    Last Post: 08-17-2018, 03:48 AM
  4. Iron Age Fort In Southern Israel Reveals Its Secrets
    By MfA in forum History (Ancient)
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 01-18-2017, 09:40 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •