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Thread: The genetic origin of Daunians and the Pan-Mediterranean southern Italian Iron Age

  1. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by eastara View Post
    Regarding the haplogroups, I am not surprised by the absence of E-V13, obviously it was not big among Ancient Greeks. I am surprised by the complete absence of J2a and J1. Judging by the samples from the Roman study and the Modern Greek haplogroup distribution J2a and branches like L70 should be the major Ancient Greek haplogroup. Is it just the small number of samples or it proves that the majority of Modern Greeks are in fact Anatolians, who came here as late as Byzantine times, and mixed up with Slavs and Albanians?
    When we will have at last a real study about Ancient Greeks from Greece, not samples from the periphery of the Greek world.
    Well the Daunians and Iapygians as a whole were not a Greek peoples. They spoke Messapian, a language that either belonged to the Illyrian dialect continuum (if there indeed was such a continuum) or was separate but closely related. From the J2b-L283+ samples it is clear to see that there was indeed input from Illyria - these individuals bringing the language - however there was also certainly large-scale intermixing with the local Italic tribes and groups.
    Ydna: J1>P58>YSC234>ZS241>BY32817 (Y179831)

    Maternal Ydna: E-V13>CTS1273*

    Mtdna: T1a1l

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  3. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by eastara View Post
    Regarding the haplogroups, I am not surprised by the absence of E-V13, obviously it was not big among Ancient Greeks.
    That's possible but still unknown, because we don't have actual Greeks tested. Its possible that in Magna Graecia, with incoming Greek colonists and Balkan people, including slaves, E-V13 did increase sharply. What the results might show is exactly the opposite, there was no big E-V13 presence before Greeks. Whether it came with Greeks or even later, that's still open to debate. But the small sample sizes are an issue, because you can always miss minority elements if just having a handful of samples.

    When we will have at last a real study about Ancient Greeks from Greece, not samples from the periphery of the Greek world.
    True, but these are not even samples from the periphery of the Greek world, but totally unrelated. Since elements of the iron making Urnfielders reached the territory of Greece, I would really wonder if E-V13 would have been completely absent. Its however possible, that's something not discussed so far, that more of the older Greek E-V13 survived in Magna Graecia, than in mainland Greece, where more might have come with later people of Daco-Thracian, Vlach, Albanian and Slavic origin. Not all E-V13 is the same, it depends on the subclades too. There are so many options, everything considered, that without more data, it remains guesswork.

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  5. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    That's possible but still unknown, because we don't have actual Greeks tested. Its possible that in Magna Graecia, with incoming Greek colonists and Balkan people, including slaves, E-V13 did increase sharply. What the results might show is exactly the opposite, there was no big E-V13 presence before Greeks. Whether it came with Greeks or even later, that's still open to debate. But the small sample sizes are an issue, because you can always miss minority elements if just having a handful of samples.

    True, but these are not even samples from the periphery of the Greek world, but totally unrelated. Since elements of the iron making Urnfielders reached the territory of Greece, I would really wonder if E-V13 would have been completely absent. Its however possible, that's something not discussed so far, that more of the older Greek E-V13 survived in Magna Graecia, than in mainland Greece, where more might have come with later people of Daco-Thracian, Vlach, Albanian and Slavic origin. Not all E-V13 is the same, it depends on the subclades too. There are so many options, everything considered, that without more data, it remains guesswork.
    Well, I saw discussions in that tread about possible admixture with Greek colonists and some of the samples were not from Iron age, but later periods.

  6. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by eastara View Post
    Well, I saw discussions in that tread about possible admixture with Greek colonists and some of the samples were not from Iron age, but later periods.
    Indeed, but no actual Greek colonists. I am particularly interested in Dorian colonies:
    Syracusans in Sicily were of Dorian descent.[7] Other such "Dorian" colonies, originally from Corinth, Megara, and the Dorian islands, dotted the southern coasts of Sicily from Syracuse to Selinus. Also Taras was a Spartan colony.[6]
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorians

    A great wave of renewed colonization beginning in the 8th century BCE brought Dorian settlers to the island of Corcyra (modern Corfu), to Syracuse, Gela, and Acragas (now Agrigento) in Sicily, to Taras (now Taranto) in Italy, and to Cyrene in North Africa, as well as to scattered sites on the Crimean Peninsula and along the Black Sea. Sparta, Corinth, and Árgos were among the most important cities of Doric origin.
    https://www.britannica.com/topic/Dorian

    Because if (at all) a Greek people was influenced by the E-V13 heavy people early on, it was the Dorians.

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  8. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    That's possible but still unknown, because we don't have actual Greeks tested. Its possible that in Magna Graecia, with incoming Greek colonists and Balkan people, including slaves, E-V13 did increase sharply. What the results might show is exactly the opposite, there was no big E-V13 presence before Greeks. Whether it came with Greeks or even later, that's still open to debate. But the small sample sizes are an issue, because you can always miss minority elements if just having a handful of samples.



    True, but these are not even samples from the periphery of the Greek world, but totally unrelated. Since elements of the iron making Urnfielders reached the territory of Greece, I would really wonder if E-V13 would have been completely absent. Its however possible, that's something not discussed so far, that more of the older Greek E-V13 survived in Magna Graecia, than in mainland Greece, where more might have come with later people of Daco-Thracian, Vlach, Albanian and Slavic origin. Not all E-V13 is the same, it depends on the subclades too. There are so many options, everything considered, that without more data, it remains guesswork.
    We know J2a was present among Greeks because of the Mycenaean and Empuries samples. In fact I'm pretty sure it's the only confirmed ancient Greek haplogroup. I guess we'll have to wait and see what the story is with E, R1b, and R1a in Greeks, but J is a shoe-in. I can't say anything more than that.
    Last edited by Michalis Moriopoulos; 08-02-2021 at 01:49 PM.
    Ελευθερία ή θάνατος.

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  10. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    I think based on what was discussed here and on Eupedia, the results and material present at this point, that the main distinction is less an ethnic and more a chronological and spatial one. Its best to characterise them as two layers, with E-V13 being later and on top of the Bronze Age J-L283 expansion. Associated with Urnfield/cremation horizon/Channelled Ware and the spread of iron technology, later with the Thraco-Cimmerian horizon and Eastern Hallstatt.



    On the Western side of the Balkans the central movement was that of Belegis II-Gava and had its centre around the Vojvodina, Morava valley. Its being in part discussed here as well:
    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....-of-Dardanians

    Note especially this map:

    https://imgur.com/fogur6E

    Their core expansion areas exactly border the modern Albanian state, with Kosovo being more affected. There can be little doubt that E-V13 was brought from those groups to areas in Albania already in the early Iron Age. But surely the region wasn't as dominated by E-V13 as parts of Pannonia, Vojvodina or the Eastern Carpathian areas with the Daco-Thracians. Going by this, the Hungarian, Czech, Slovakian and Romanian-Moldovan, Serbian and Bulgarian diversity for the prehistorical clades should be higher than in Albanians and that's what we largely see imho. Most Albanian diversity points to a fairly later local branching event from more Northern groups. While in some other places, we can discuss Bronze Age diversity, for Albanians its mostly Iron Age the earliest and usually later.
    How do we measure this proto E-V13 ancestry in G25?

  11. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by darknorman11 View Post
    How do we measure this proto E-V13 ancestry in G25?
    I'm not sure, because we haven't them tested, but going by samples nearby and from groups involved in their autosomal formation, I'd say the incoming E-V13 people will just elevate the steppe ancestry somewhat, because of the contributions from the Epi-Corded and Urnfield-related populations. This was however primarily a male-specialists and warrior driven, quick expansion, so the autosomal impact won't be directly proportional to the paternal share and decrease from North -> South. So while I would assume that areas like Vojvodina should experience some North shift, areas like Thrace too, but less so in comparison. Basically, they won't stick out that much.

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  13. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cascio View Post
    You need to explain to me what you think Monarchy/Early Republic Romans were like genetically, in your view and the same goes for the Romans of the Julio-Claudians and Flavians and then the Romans of the 4th and 5th centuries CE/AD, before the Langobard era.
    In the Moots paper in my opinion they have some dates wrong, for example the Necropoli Salaria is not 0-200 CE but rather 200-0 BCE with some burials from 0-100 CE. So IMO we already have Rep samples. It might even be a mistranslation from Italian. The site was already emptied in the medieval times, but more deep burial were discovered from what I understand, relatively recently after the battle of Porta Pia in 1871. I have no sources because I don't remember where I read that, but IMO we don't have great info on these samples in general.

    Edit: were they carbon dated?

    Edit2: https://www.digitalaugustanrome.org/...ulcra-salaria/ info
    Last edited by Ariel90; 08-02-2021 at 04:52 PM.

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  15. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by R.Rocca View Post
    Lost in the typical "when did East Med. enter Italy" pissing match is that these Iron Age Daunians look to be Western Mediterranean-shifted. If any Iron Age group of the Italian Peninsula was going to be eastern-shifted, it was going to be them. Given that is not the case, most Iron Age groups in the peninsula will likely look "autochthonous", although I'd still caution that we should pay close attention to the outliers.
    Absolutely.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ariel90 View Post
    The fact is, I've no idea how Rome was during the Punic wars. I think is unlikely it was fully Italic. Again, the lone sample that we have from 400-200 BCE is Southern Italian-like. We act like nothing could have happened from 600BCE to 100CE, I think we need samples from that era, we have only one.
    at the time of the hannibal wars , north-Iitaly was still independent of Rome.........only the Venetics allied with Rome from the north.

    Romans gathered their troops, from etruscan and the sub-tribes of the umbri which they subjugated 100 years earlier ( sub-tribes ......samnites, sabellics, sabines, volospi, lucatti, brutti etc etc )


    My Path = ( K-M9+, LT-P326+, T-M184+, L490+, M70+, PF5664+, L131+, L446+, CTS933+, CTS3767+, CTS8862+, Z19945+, BY143483+ )


    Grandfather via paternal grandmother = I1-CTS6397 yDna
    Great grandmother paternal side = T1a1e mtDna
    Son's mtDna = K1a4p

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