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Thread: The genetic origin of Daunians and the Pan-Mediterranean southern Italian Iron Age

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    Quote Originally Posted by Erikl86 View Post
    4. Last but not least, the pattern of East Med admixture in Italy is South to North. When more ancient S. Italian samples will finally show light, as has been rumored here by many, it'll become even more obvious. If this was due to some direct migration/slavery as a result of the rise of Rome, you'd see the pattern starts from Rome and then show extensions both Southward and Northward. This obviously isn't the case. This means the East Med component arrived to Italy regardless of Rome, and Rome inherited it when it expanded Southward in the Italian peninsula. It's funny seeing the extent of mental gymnastics some pull here ignoring this obvious pattern.
    Not sure why you need the impact of slavery to be centered on the capital, the 3 servile wars started either in Sicily or Campania for example. Plus the south had more Greek ancestry to begin with so even if the impact radiated from Rome the south would have more ancestry than the north even if it had less than the center.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Erikl86 View Post
    Considering there was no Phoenician colonizers in peninsular S. Italy, and we don't know exactly just how large the Phoenician settlement in Sicily was, then yeah, I doubt this was the main source for the genetic shift we see in S. Italy.
    I guess there was some Phoenician influence, but any single Greek colonial city in Sicily had in all likelihood the size and demographic impact of the total Phoenician settlement in the whole region. Also, they were defeated and persecuted by the Romans more so than the Greeks, with many fleeing the Romans beforehand. So whatever their presence was, it can't have been big or influential enough, especially not in comparison to the Greek colonies.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Granary View Post
    Not sure why you need the impact of slavery to be centered on the capital, the 3 servile wars started either in Sicily or Campania for example. Plus the south had more Greek ancestry to begin with so even if the impact radiated from Rome the south would have more ancestry than the north even if it had less than the center.
    I would say that some of the big plantations might have had no single Roman individual left, from the administrator, over the slave-master, to the freedmen and bond-workers, down to the slaves, the vast majority of some settlements will have been derived of migrants and slaves. These might have lived there for generations and not been that exotic after all, but true Italics would have been a rare sight without a doubt. Even old Greek stock, rather not, probably with the exception of the administrator and writer or something along these lines. Many owners in the urban centres or more luxurious villae might have visited the plantation only a few times in their whole life. Its like an investment nowadays, totally commercialised and it had nothing to do with traditional rural ways of the region.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Granary View Post
    Not sure why you need the impact of slavery to be centered on the capital, the 3 servile wars started either in Sicily or Campania for example. Plus the south had more Greek ancestry to begin with so even if the impact radiated from Rome the south would have more ancestry than the north even if it had less than the center.
    Well for once Roman law restricted marriage so that Roman citizens could only marry Roman citizens. This means that up until after the Social Wars, that is, early 1st century BCE, many Romans couldn't marry non-Romans.

    Restrictions on the marriage between Roman citizens and freed slaves continued even further, until Augustus' lex Julia in 18 BCE, so that the notion that marriage and raising children with foreign women was common practice is a rather non-realistic concept. Of course, non-legal children via concubines was always a possibility.
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    The Servile Wars 135-71BC were well before Rome expanted into the middle east.



    Obviously there is significant evidence of outliers well before this time too, even in this paper, the later samples 4,5 century BC, they look somewhat shifted towards modern, so who were these people?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ariel90 View Post
    The Servile Wars 135-71BC were well before Rome expanted into the middle east.



    Obviously there is significant evidence of outliers well before this time too, even in this paper, the later samples 4,5 century BC, they look somewhat shifted towards modern, so who were these people?
    But after they annexed Magna Graecia following the Pyrrhic wars, and after they annexed Greece and W. Anatolia (which was heavily settled by Greeks).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erikl86 View Post
    But after they annexed Magna Graecia following the Pyrrhic wars, and after they annexed Greece and W. Anatolia (which was heavily settled by Greeks).
    Yes, about 200-100 BC should be a turning point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Erikl86 View Post
    But after they annexed Magna Graecia following the Pyrrhic wars, and after they annexed Greece and W. Anatolia (which was heavily settled by Greeks).
    Exactly

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    Quote Originally Posted by eastara View Post
    I think what population was on the Balkans, especially the North and Eastern part has little meaning to the modern nations. Towards 6-7th c. these parts of the Balkans were already completely depopulated. The existence of the Danube limes a little before that also drew population predominantly from the Eastern part of the empire plus different barbarians like the Goths used as mercenaries to protect the border.
    Modern Balkanites formed in the Early Medieval times with little input from the former populations, excluding maybe the Albanians, Vlach Aromuns and others who managed to survive in the mountains of the South West. However there was some revival of the old Balkanian during Ottoman times with the population explosion of the Albanians and their converting to Islam. This caused a domino effect of Slavs and Vlachs leaving the South West and populating Eastern Bulgaria, until then almost completely Turkified. Some moved also North and North west towards Bosnia, Dalmatia and Serbia.
    Why do modern Bulgarians and Slavic-speaking Macedonians plot the way they do if they "formed in the Early Medieval times with little input from the former populations"?

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    Quote Originally Posted by peloponnesian View Post
    Why do modern Bulgarians and Slavic-speaking Macedonians plot the way they do if they "formed in the Early Medieval times with little input from the former populations"?
    Bulgarians formed initially with little input of the previous local population meaning remnant of Thracians, etc, but they had Balkan-like admixture early on. Some think the admixture of Slavs, Romanised Balkanians and maybe some Germanic tribes happened first in Pannonia/Transylvania during the Avar khaganate. When their state was destroyed by the Bulgars the Slavilised population moved South and reached Western Bulgaria, North Macedonia and further down, where it admixed once more with the local Vlach like people. This way Bulgarians and Macedonians are less Slavic than the other ex Yugoslavians. The early Slav settlers around Thessaloniki and Thrace are not direct ancestors to Macedonians and Bulgarians as they Hellenised early on with the inclusion in Byzantium and not the First Bulgarian state.
    Nobody is sure what happened to the old Bulgars, who settled exclusively in Northern Bulgaria and nowadays Romania. Most people think they were too few to leave any evident genetic impact, the same as the Magyars in the modern Hungarians. North Eastern Bulgaria and lowland Thrace were once again depopulated even before the Ottoman conquest, who used this to move Anatolian and Tartar settlers, hence this area was almost completely Turkified.
    Last edited by eastara; 08-03-2021 at 02:27 PM.

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