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Thread: The genetic origin of Daunians and the Pan-Mediterranean southern Italian Iron Age

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by RCO View Post
    Those three J2b-M241 should all be J-L283+, in fact I would be shocked if they aren't. There is absolutely no evidence this haplogroup was in the western Balkans/Italy before the Bronze Age, but to the contrary. Cherry picking a single sample, while ignoring the other two doesn't help your case either. User Agamemnon explained the known situation of J-L283 quite well..

    On another note, it would be interesting to see the deeper classification of the two R1b-M269s. If I had to guess, I'd say they are under PF7562. Hopefully it won't take too long before the raw data (BAM files) are published.
    Last edited by Trojet; 07-31-2021 at 02:49 PM.

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  3. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    On another note, it would be interesting to see the deeper classification of the two R1b-M269s. If I had to guess, I'd say they are PF7562.
    One of these samples is already P312 which was common in the Pre-Roman Latin tribes, as was L23>Z2103 and L51>PF7589. Given that M269>PF7562 has not appeared in any Iron Age samples from Italy yet, I don't think it all that likely.
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543 >> PR5365, Pietro Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

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  5. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by R.Rocca View Post
    Maybe they mean the "Philistine" ASH067 sample which had excess European ancestry and was R1b? Several others in grouping ASH_IA1 also had excess European ancestry that was diluted afterwards.
    Judging from the PCA, this can only be ASH068 (female).
    מכורותיך ומולדותיך מארץ הכנעני אביך האמורי ואמך חתית
    יחזקאל פרק טז ג-


    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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  7. #34
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    What’s interesting now is that which J-L283 downstream will we see in these samples, similar to what we saw in Sardinia or Etruscans?, or will we see J-Y23094 or potential Z631 or its pre splitters before?
    My Y Line: J2a-L210>Z489>Z482>Y15222>Y15245

    My Maternal Y: R1b-U152>Z36>Y156527

    Great Grandparent (Maternal Grandfather's Mother's line) Y: R1b-U152>L2

    Great Grandparent (Maternal Grandmother's Mother's line) Y: I2-P78>A427>S23612>Y6396

    Other Y lines Confirmed: 3x GG on Maternal side: J2a-S25258>SK1336, 3x GG on Maternal side: J2a-M67, 4x GG on Maternal side: R1b-PF7562, 5x GG on Maternal side: E-V13, 5x GG on Maternal side: R2-L266

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  9. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nino90 View Post
    Please don't go off topic with your political and ethnic tribalism.
    Dude common
    My Y Line: J2a-L210>Z489>Z482>Y15222>Y15245

    My Maternal Y: R1b-U152>Z36>Y156527

    Great Grandparent (Maternal Grandfather's Mother's line) Y: R1b-U152>L2

    Great Grandparent (Maternal Grandmother's Mother's line) Y: I2-P78>A427>S23612>Y6396

    Other Y lines Confirmed: 3x GG on Maternal side: J2a-S25258>SK1336, 3x GG on Maternal side: J2a-M67, 4x GG on Maternal side: R1b-PF7562, 5x GG on Maternal side: E-V13, 5x GG on Maternal side: R2-L266

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  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by R.Rocca View Post
    One of these samples is already P312 which was common in the Pre-Roman Latin tribes, as was L23>Z2103 and L51>PF7589. Given that M269>PF7562 has not appeared in any Iron Age samples from Italy yet, I don't think it all that likely.
    The reason why I think PF7562 is more likely for the two "unclassified" M269s is because there is three R1b's in total. One of them is classified all the way to P312, while the other two are left at M269. The coverage of these two is on par or better with the one that's P312. Not sure which ISOGG version they used, but this leads me to believe they were tested negative or no call for any SNPs they checked under L23. The other possibility is they had no call for L23 and they didn't check for any Z2103 or downstream, which brings me to my second likelihood. Anyway, I'm sure we'll be able to see what they are once the BAM files are published.

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  13. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Principe View Post
    What’s interesting now is that which J-L283 downstream will we see in these samples, similar to what we saw in Sardinia or Etruscans?, or will we see J-Y23094 or potential Z631 or its pre splitters before?
    I would hope at least one of them is under J-Z638

    Without any order, I think J-Y21045, J-Y23094, J-Z38240 are some of the likeliest. The two that are left at M241 are lower coverage than most other samples, so hopefully we can get some important SNP calls there..

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  15. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    Those three J2b-M241 should all be J-L283+, in fact I would be shocked if they aren't. There is absolutely no evidence this haplogroup was in the western Balkans/Italy before the Bronze Age, but to the contrary. Cherry picking a single sample, while ignoring the other two doesn't help your case either. User Agamemnon explained the known situation of J-L283 quite well..

    On another note, it would be interesting to see the deeper classification of the two R1b-M269s. If I had to guess, I'd say they are under PF7562. Hopefully it won't take too long before the raw data (BAM files) are published.
    They were from different ancestral populations populations mixing within a new region. Y-DNA and DNA structures are representative of different mating complexes, they came from different ancestral populations and different routes mixing up there and we know about the strong association between haplogroup J and Caucasus-Iran (CHG/IN).
    J1 FGC5987 to FGC6175 (188 new SNPs)
    MDKAs before Colonial Brazil
    Y-DNA - Milhazes, Barcelos, Minho, Portugal.
    mtDNA - Ilha Terceira, Azores, Portugal
    North_Swedish + PT + PT + PT @ 3.96 EUtest 4

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  17. #39
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    ORD014 shares mtdna I5a2 with an imperial Roman sample from around 400 AD.
    ORD014 2438 25 BP I5a2+16086C J2b2-L283
    LRV 114 Adult (4549) M I5a2
    https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...52409X17308568

    I5a2 is relatively common in ancient DNA, but rare in Italy today. There is no mtdna I5a among hundreds of people from the FTDNA Italy project.

  18. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erikl86 View Post
    So all in all, Iron Age Apulians were similar to IA Romans with some affinity to Illyrians. Not surprising at all.

    "We find that Iron Age Apulian samples are still distant from the genetic variability of modern-day Apulians"

    ^ Not surprising to most of us, very disappointing to some who hoped IA S. Italians were already East Med-like thanks to "Neolithic admix from the East", and that the Eastern shift seen in Imperial era samples from Rome was limited only to that city because of it's Cosmopolitan nature
    I guess that in this forum, most believe Greeks are responsible for the shift in Southern Italy, am I wrong? Presenting a dicotomy between Iron age and Imperial disregards everything that happened in Greek cities and in the rep era. But as I pointed out in the past, the last few samples that we have from the Rome paper in the IA are likely rep era, and have an east med profile, seemengly Greek shifted. We have 500 years of space to fill, and a bunch of Illyrian samples. You talk like you know for a fact that the shift happened in the Imperial era and because the empire, (and you talk like you won some kind of game). At least have the intellectual decency to make a full point, and explain how and when, proving some evidence, if possible. By early Imperial era, and probably late Republic Rome was already east med, so that overnight shift, couldn't possibly be caused by an Empire who wasn't born yet. I mean, and how that happened? People changed overnight with no remnants of the past? Isn't it more likely that progressively in the rep era Italic populations absorbed a Greek and and east med strata of sort? In reality we see that Rome progressively ends up with more Whg and steppe during the 2 and 3 century. And by first century there was a total lack of the IA profile, again, IMO you need at least 300-400 years to bring that many people in, if you think about the logistics of brining milions of people aroung the sea in ancient times in a populated area like the peninsula, that truly and literally couldn't have happened overnight. As many users pointed out, half of the Imperial roman on G25 are closer to Aegean Greeks, now, what are the odds, than in a city full of Greeks, that adopted Greek culture, people were close to modern isolated population that are indeed Greek speakers? Do we even know how Greeks were in classical time? And do we even know the genetic profile of magna Graecia? Isn't it relevant, that the people spoke Greek in southern Italy even well into the Empire? No genetic impact there, are you sure? You can't have transept with 600 years of gaps and holes, and make definitive statements like you did, and the reality is that the when you get close to 500bc you start seeing outliers, who were they? And then you have a gap, and we make assumptions...
    Last edited by Ariel90; 07-31-2021 at 05:26 PM.

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