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Thread: The genetic origin of Daunians and the Pan-Mediterranean southern Italian Iron Age

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspar View Post
    If I understood the article correctly, the majority of the samples have affinities with the IA Romans and Croatians. Only some samples appear sporadically with increased CHG and Iran N such as that ORD009 sample that clusters in direction to CHG unlike it's mother. Unfortunately this sample is a female so no y-dna.
    This scenario where these IA Daunians have affinities with the IA Croatians doesn't give validity to a scenario where J-M241 would have been brought to Italy by an ancient population rich in CHG and Iran N components. Especially because the older samples with this y-dna such as one sample from MBA Croatia and one EBA sample from Mokrin, Serbia doesn't show such elevated CHG and Iran N components.
    Thats correct, affinity with the Liburnians ( iron-age Croatians ) ............affinity with the Liburnian league of the North Adriatic sea area

    As italians historians have said.............Liburnians colonised Picene and Corfu , but where not sure if they colonised Foggia ( Daunians ) or if the Daunians where part of the Liburnian league.

    Liburnia lost Corfu circa 700BC to the Greek Corinthians

    The paper confirms that the Messapic did not come from southern "illyria"
    Last edited by vettor; 07-31-2021 at 05:34 PM.


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  3. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by R.Rocca View Post
    Maybe they mean the "Philistine" ASH067 sample which had excess European ancestry and was R1b? Several others in grouping ASH_IA1 also had excess European ancestry that was diluted afterwards.
    Is not the latest finds by Israeli archeologists ( less then 2 years ago ) state the Philistines originate from Eastern Crete ?


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  4. #43
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    Btw, these new samples appears to be mostly Italic but others have more east-med, as a result some of them might look like moderns central\northern Italians, especially because some have elevated steppe, probably because of the balkanic connection (seen to this day in Apulia), also that proto-villanovan guy might be interesting to compare with.

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  6. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ariel90 View Post
    I guess that in this forum, most believe Greeks are responsible for the shift in Southern Italy, am I wrong? Presenting a dicotomy between Iron age and Imperial disregards everything that happened in Greek cities and in the rep era. But as I pointed out in the past, the last few samples that we have from the Rome paper in the IA are likely rep era, and have an east med profile, seemengly Greek shifted. We have 500 years of space to fill, and a bunch of Illyrian samples. You talk like you know for a fact that the shift happened in the Imperial era and because the empire, (and you talk like you won some kind of game). At least have the intellectual decency to make a full point, and explain how and when, proving some evidence, if possible. By early Imperial era, and probably late Republic Rome was already east med, so that overnight shift, couldn't possibly be caused by an Empire who wasn't born yet. I mean, and how that happened? People changed overnight with no remnants of the past? Isn't it more likely that progressively in the rep era Italic populations absorbed a Greek and and east med strata of sort? In reality we see that Rome progressively ends up with more Whg and steppe during the 2 and 3 century. And by first century there was a total lack of the IA profile, again, IMO you need at least 300-400 years to bring that many people in, if you think about the logistics of brining milions of people aroung the sea in ancient times in a populated area like the peninsula, that truly and literally couldn't have happened overnight. As many users pointed out, half of the Imperial roman on G25 are closer to Aegean Greeks, now, what are the odds, than in a city full of Greeks, that adopted Greek culture, people were close to modern isolated population that are indeed Greek speakers? Do we even know how Greeks were in classical time? And do we even know the genetic profile of magna Graecia? Isn't it relevant, that the people spoke Greek in southern Italy even well into the Empire? No genetic impact there, are you sure? You can't have transept with 600 years of gaps and holes, and make definitive statements like you did, and the reality is that the when you get close to 500bc you start seeing outliers, who were they? And then you have a gap, and we make assumptions...
    The Italian historian scenario is that the liburnians colonised Picene ( Marche ) , Corfu and are not sure if they colonised Foggia with the Daunians ...................these Daunians, over many years moved southwards absorbing Italic tribes

    Daunians spoke the Messapic language like the Messapic an the Peucetians who are all Iapygian/Iapodes in origin ...........these are north-Adriatic in origin and most likely part of the Liburnian league who lived in the hinterland circa 1000BC


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    Quote Originally Posted by vettor View Post
    Thats correct, affinity with the Liburnians ( iron-age Croatians ) ............affinity with the Liburnian league of the North Adriatic sea area

    As italians historians have said.............Liburnians colonised Picene and Corfu , but where not sure if they colonised Foggia ( Daunians ) or if the Daunians where part of the Liburnian league.

    Liburnia lost Corfu circa 700BC to the Greek Corinthians

    The paper confirms that the Messapic did not come from southern "illyria"
    For starters, what evidence do you have that the Iron Age samples from Croatia were even Liburnians?

    Second of all, when looking at the archaeological data and epigraphic/onomastic evidence, there are suggestions of a correlation and connection between the Iapygians and southern Illyrian polities or tribes. Anthroponyms attested show counterparts with those of the core or southern Illyrian and Delmato-Pannonian onomastic areas, there is no real correlation with the Liburnian-speaking areas. Also, we have yet to obtain samples from southern Illyria, so no I would say that this paper is far from debunking or refuting anything.
    Ydna: J1>P58>YSC234>ZS241>BY32817 (Y179831)

    Maternal Ydna: E-V13>CTS1273*

    Mtdna: T1a1l

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    Republican Romans? Are those samples new? There were no republican Roman sample in the previous study (Ancient Rome: A genetic crossroads of Europe and the Mediterranean) if I recall correctly.

  10. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    For starters, what evidence do you have that the Iron Age samples from Croatia were even Liburnians?

    Second of all, when looking at the archaeological data and epigraphic/onomastic evidence, there are suggestions of a correlation and connection between the Iapygians and southern Illyrian polities or tribes. Anthroponyms attested show counterparts with those of the core or southern Illyrian and Delmato-Pannonian onomastic areas, there is no real correlation with the Liburnian-speaking areas. Also, we have yet to obtain samples from southern Illyria, so no I would say that this paper is far from debunking or refuting anything.
    what else is iron-age croatians ? let me know

    have you seen any notes on Dalmatians prior to 500Bc .................there are notes on Liburnians from 1100BC

    do you want to say they are istrian?............. Gradina (hillfort) culture in Istria, the Urnfield culture in northern Croatia

    or Cetina culture which was near modern Split, south Croatia?

    There is no evidence the iazypian are southern Illyrian ...............there is a Iazypian tribe in dacia where the illyrian and thracians mixed


    it does not say affinity with Bosnians or montenegrians, it says
    Within the described Pan Mediterranean landscape, the IAA/Daunians show a compelling 264
    heterogeneity, and the highest genetic affinity to Republican Romans and Iron Age Croatians,
    Last edited by vettor; 07-31-2021 at 06:25 PM.


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  11. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alkaevli View Post
    Republican Romans? Are those samples new? There were no republican Roman sample in the previous study (Ancient Rome: A genetic crossroads of Europe and the Mediterranean) if I recall correctly.
    One or two of the Latium IA samples might be Republic era, but yes, it's highly misleading to call it Iron_Age_Republic, because only one, the Prenestini outlier, is actually 400-200 BC, so definitely Republic, the others are 700 - 600 BCE and one is 600 - 200 BCE

    Distance to: ITA_Prenestini_tribe_IA_o:RMPR437b
    0.03028814 Italian_Basilicata
    0.03094613 Italian_Campania
    0.03155609 Italian_Apulia
    0.03228704 Greek_Laconia
    0.03274259 Italian_Lazio

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    Quote Originally Posted by vettor View Post
    what else is iron-age croatians ? let me know

    have you seen any notes on Dalmatians prior to 500Bc .................there are notes on Liburnians from 1100BC

    do you want to say they are istrian?............. Gradina (hillfort) culture in Istria, the Urnfield culture in northern Croatia

    or Cetina culture which was near modern Split, south Croatia?

    There is no evidence the iazypian are southern Illyrian ...............there is a Iazypian tribe in dacia where the illyrian and thracians mixed


    it does not say affinity with Bosnians or montenegrians, it says
    Within the described Pan Mediterranean landscape, the IAA/Daunians show a compelling 264
    heterogeneity, and the highest genetic affinity to Republican Romans and Iron Age Croatians,
    You cannot make the assumption that the Liburnians were the only inhabitants of Iron Age Croatia simply because the Delmatae specifically were not attested or recorded prior to the year 181 BCE. Firstly, Liburnia or the homeland of the Liburnians did not extend across the entirety of modern-day Croatia but rather only included specific regions of northern Dalmatia, the Kvarner Gulf and eastern Istria. Secondly, we know that cultures that were at the very least partially, if not directly, ancestral to the Illyrian tribes of Croatia were already established in the region since the Bronze Age. A clear example is the Posušje culture which covered the Dalmatian hinterland and Herzegovina. It even extended from the Zrmanja River into modern-day Montenegro.

    There is a lot more evidence to support the connection between the Iapygians and southern Illyrians than there is to support the assumption that they were essentially a branch of the Liburnians that settled in modern Apulia. As I mentioned previously, the personal names attested have a number of counterparts with the southern Illyrians and even Delmato-Pannonians. For example the connection between the Illyrian Bardyl(l)is and Messapian Barzidihi or Teuta(na) and Teutā. As far as I am aware, the personal names attested do not show any correlation with the true Liburnian onomastic area which was rather distinct. I also personally do not think that the connection between the tribal names Iapygian and Iapydes is enough to conclusively state that the former were a branch of the latter. If we were to use the same methodology without any other supporting evidence, then we could argue that the Dardi, who were a Messapic-speaking people, arrived from Dardania. Also the Iapydes (or Iapodes, Japodes) were not Liburnian-speaking themselves.

    They do not show any genetic affinity to samples from Bosnia and Herzegovina and Montenegro because we do not have any published samples from those nations. The modern inhabitants of those countries are not directly and purely descended from the Iron Age inhabitants.
    Ydna: J1>P58>YSC234>ZS241>BY32817 (Y179831)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    You cannot make the assumption that the Liburnians were the only inhabitants of Iron Age Croatia simply because the Delmatae specifically were not attested or recorded prior to the year 181 BCE. Firstly, Liburnia or the homeland of the Liburnians did not extend across the entirety of modern-day Croatia but rather only included specific regions of northern Dalmatia, the Kvarner Gulf and eastern Istria. Secondly, we know that cultures that were at the very least partially, if not directly, ancestral to the Illyrian tribes of Croatia were already established in the region since the Bronze Age. A clear example is the Posušje culture which covered the Dalmatian hinterland and Herzegovina. It even extended from the Zrmanja River into modern-day Montenegro.

    There is a lot more evidence to support the connection between the Iapygians and southern Illyrians than there is to support the assumption that they were essentially a branch of the Liburnians that settled in modern Apulia. As I mentioned previously, the personal names attested have a number of counterparts with the southern Illyrians and even Delmato-Pannonians. For example the connection between the Illyrian Bardyl(l)is and Messapian Barzidihi or Teuta(na) and Teutā. As far as I am aware, the personal names attested do not show any correlation with the true Liburnian onomastic area which was rather distinct. I also personally do not think that the connection between the tribal names Iapygian and Iapydes is enough to conclusively state that the former were a branch of the latter. If we were to use the same methodology without any other supporting evidence, then we could argue that the Dardi, who were a Messapic-speaking people, arrived from Dardania. Also the Iapydes (or Iapodes, Japodes) were not Liburnian-speaking themselves.

    They do not show any genetic affinity to samples from Bosnia and Herzegovina and Montenegro because we do not have any published samples from those nations. The modern inhabitants of those countries are not directly and purely descended from the Iron Age inhabitants.

    assumptions are far more accurate than nationalistic propaganda

    Liburnia and its hinterland was big in the early iron-age .......I even presented their studied diets was far more from the land than the sea.

    Which personnel names ? ......what years, below 500BC ? ............

    what you can do is test the R1 sample and see if she links with any of these samples ..........

    forget about Teuta etc and the others from this Montengrian group , we all know that the illyrians did not arrive that far south until the wars against philip of Macedon, we all know the celts moved in after this, we all know the corinthians Greeks set up cities like Durres etc in northern albania and also cities in southern Montenegro circa 700BC ..............why do you leave this out
    Durrės was founded by Ancient Greek colonists from Corinth and Corcyra under the name of Epidamnos around the 7th century BC


    ..............the paper does not say affinity with Bosnians or Montenegrians ................why do you exclude these people?

    I have been telling you for a long time these Daunians ( messapic and other ) are from the North-Adriatic and not from Southern-Adriatic sphere


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