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Thread: The genetic origin of Daunians and the Pan-Mediterranean southern Italian Iron Age

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    i mentioned this before
    imo the whole magna graecia (italiotes) premise is nonsense; it fails as it doesnt have the format, see:empuries2, to be the source causing the east-med. shift; that source is clearly from the hellenistic east spec. (mostly) anatolia

    and it did not come by a conquest it came via mass migrations of contractual slavery (bondsmen) willingly in debt and then working off the debt to be free and citizens; titus livius several times uses the term cives Romani libertini ordinis (...Roman citizens of the class of freedmen) when ref. to events of the second century bc/bce and that system of migration was finally abolished by the senate in 104BC/BCE as allied states like bythinia were running low on population; now the romans obv. intermixed with these liberti and this is exactly the diff. to a conquest otherwise there would also have been smth. like a 'gaulish shift' by the masses of conquered slaves (see:spartacus, gallic-war etc.) that were dragged into italy but that never happened as conquered slaves are again a whole diff. ball game

    now whether the second century bc/bce is the time of the abrupt 'population-wide shift' (looking at the primary lit. it might be) will atleast be tested with the pompeii samples {roman family in a roman villa in a roman town in roman italy} doesnt get anymore roman thanthat with a terminus ante quem of 79AD/CE; wouldnt also be bad if samples from hellenistic anatolia get published (bythinia, cilicia etc.) but looking at the economic output of the roman empire there was alot coming together
    Last edited by alexfritz; 08-01-2021 at 12:54 AM.
    GENO2.0 51SEURO 19WCEURO 13SCANDINAVIA 5ASIAMINOR 4EEURO 4GB/IRELAND 3ARABIA myOrigins 26ITA.PEN. 13GREECE&BALKANS 12SARDINIA 18GREATBRITAIN 14IRELAND 10C.EUROPE 8SCANDINAVIA DNA.Land 49NWEURO 27SEURO 13MED.ISLANDER 11SARDINIAN myHeritage 51.8NWEURO 33.2ITALIAN 7.9GREEK/S.ITALY 7.1BALKAN gencove 29NITALY 19EMED 15NBRITISLES 12SWEURO 10NCEURO 9SCANDINAVIA 6NEEURO GenePlaza 54.4NWEURO 37.6GRE/ALB 5.6WASIAN 2.4SWASIA LivingDNA 57.4S.GER 3.3NE.GER 25.8N.ITA 5S.ITA 4.3TUSCANY 2.5CYPRUS 1.7AEGEAN

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michalis Moriopoulos View Post
    We really need IA, classical, and Hellenistic samples from Magna Graecia and southern Greece itself to settle this question. If classical southern Greeks and Magna Graecians all look like Mycenaeans/Emporiotes but suddenly look like Cretans after Alexander's conquests then we'll know it was Hellenistic mass migration from the Near East that is responsible for the East Med profile in Europe. If even Hellenistic samples from Magna Graecia and Greece don't look East Med, then we'll know it was Imperial Roman conquest that did it. Place your bets.
    The only initial Greeks that went to Italy where Corinthian Greeks ....I include sicily as well

    About 18% of the people in post-colonial southern Italy were of Greek ancestry (revealed by na´ve Bayes classification). These people lived equally distributed across Greek colonies and indigenous settlements. Nevertheless, we found that the overall biological composition and variability of southern Italy remained relatively unchanged across pre- and post-colonial

    Our results contradict a colonization scenario in which large numbers of Greek invaders founded biologically isolated and substantially homogeneous colonial settlements in hostile native lands. This more traditional interpretation of Greek colonization is largely based on ancient written sources from Greek writers (Boardman, 1964; Dunbabin, 1948; Greco, 2002; Pugliese Carratelli, 1996). Drawing from these historical sources, it is thought that the colonies (or apoikiai) were centrally organized expeditions sent out by a “mother city” under the auspices of the Delphian oracle. They were led by an official founder (the oikistes), who chose the location and proceeded to divide the land in regular allotments distributed to the colonists. The oikistes was also responsible for establishing local cults

    We estimated an overall Greek contribution of 18% to the population of southern Italy along the Gulf of Taranto during the post-colonial period (700–200 BC). Our estimated Greek contribution is close to the size spectrum proposed by historical demographers, who suggested 10% Greeks in pre-Roman southern Italy (Beloch, 1886). Our finding is also in line with preliminary strontium isotopic evidence, indicating that 10% (n = 20) of the post-colonial individuals in the study region are of nonlocal origin (Vos, 2018). colonized territories were generally characterized by few Greek newcomers living alongside a much larger indigenous population. Our estimated Greek contribution of 18% differs from genomic estimates of the ancient Greek contribution to southern Italy derived from present-day DNA profiles. Di Gaetano et al. (2009) used the haplogroup lineage E-V13 to estimate a Greek contribution of 37% to the population of Sicily and attributed the migration influx to the Classical period (2,380 years before present)


    2380-1956 = 424BC when they got to Sicily

    they say 700BC ...this is the date of the Corinthians taking Corfu from the Liburnians...basically the first foray into the south Adriatic sphere
    Last edited by vettor; 08-01-2021 at 01:05 AM.


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    @vettor read Alojz Benac article on Messapians to see that Messapians were not descended of Liburnians. Liburnians btw were a Venetic people.

    I see there are Montenegrin aDNA results here. IA Montenegrin sample and LBA Montenegrin sample. They should be those older lower res samples. Montenegrin IA sample seems to have 1/3 of Cretan Armenoi SNPs while the LBA Montenegrin sample has around 1/2. Montenegrin IA is on par with low res Sicilian EBA sample. Nevertheless despite them being low res they can be of limited use in PCA. In F3 analysis they show affinity to various Daunian samples.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Huban View Post
    @vettor read Alojz Benac article on Messapians to see that Messapians were not descended of Liburnians. Liburnians btw were a Venetic people.

    I see there are Montenegrin aDNA results here. IA Montenegrin sample and LBA Montenegrin sample. They should be those older lower res samples. Montenegrin IA sample seems to have 1/3 of Cretan Armenoi SNPs while the LBA Montenegrin sample has around 1/2. Montenegrin IA is on par with low res Sicilian EBA sample. Nevertheless despite them being low res they can be of limited use in PCA. In F3 analysis they show affinity to various Daunian samples.
    he was wrong........his article is from the 1960s and goes against all modern Italian historians and geneticists

    Don't bring him up again.....he has been discussed in other forums


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    Quote Originally Posted by vettor View Post
    he was wrong........his article is from the 1960s and goes against all modern Italian historians and geneticists

    Don't bring him up again.....he has been discussed in other forums
    LOL, why don't you quote someone refuting that? It was written in 1988. Quoted dozens of archeologists. Albanian archeologists also supported the notion that Messapians came from Albania. He listed numerous problems with the notion that they came from, albeit Liburnians did have some influence during their domination of the seas.

    But as he pointed out Iapodians were not a maritime people and at the time of Messapian migrations into Daunia they were in no social condition to execute such a movement, their cohesion dates only to latter time just before the Roman invasions. Also pottery-wise Daunian pottery was of matt-painted variety and as Frano Prendi (Albanian) stated this pottery was older in Devoli area than in Epirus, Macedonia or Southern Italy. Zhaneta Andrea (Albanian) also endorsed view of connection between Albanian Illyrians and Messapians, as matt-pained pottery was most common in BA and IA in Devoli and Vjose river basins.

    There is no firm evidence whatsoever suggesting Daunian Illyrians came from Dalmatia, there is no conclusive evidence connecting them with Albania either but its much more in favor of that direction.

    A.Benac
    "It is impossible to even think of the possibility that the protogeometric Iapygian or Daunian pottery, i.e. Apulian matt-painted pottery originated on the basis of Liburnian role-models, because there such material simply does not exist"


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    Quote Originally Posted by Huban View Post
    LOL, why don't you quote someone refuting that? It was written in 1988. Quoted dozens of archeologists. Albanian archeologists also supported the notion that Messapians came from Albania. He listed numerous problems with the notion that they came from, albeit Liburnians did have some influence during their domination of the seas.

    But as he pointed out Iapodians were not a maritime people and at the time of Messapian migrations into Daunia they were in no social condition to execute such a movement, their cohesion dates only to latter time just before the Roman invasions. Also pottery-wise Daunian pottery was of matt-painted variety and as Frano Prendi (Albanian) stated this pottery was older in Devoli area than in Epirus, Macedonia or Southern Italy. Zhaneta Andrea (Albanian) also endorsed view of connection between Albanian Illyrians and Messapians, as matt-pained pottery was most common in BA and IA in Devoli and Vjose river basins.

    There is no firm evidence whatsoever suggesting Daunian Illyrians came from Dalmatia, there is no conclusive evidence connecting them with Albania either but its much more in favor of that direction.

    A.Benac
    "It is impossible to even think of the possibility that the protogeometric Iapygian or Daunian pottery, i.e. Apulian matt-painted pottery originated on the basis of Liburnian role-models, because there such material simply does not exist"

    On the shores of the Ionian Sea and the native Messapian, Peucetian and Daunian workshops. Although red figured pottery from Apulia are not widely exported outside the home area of production, though examples are found on the Eastern Adriatic, in ancient Issa on the island of Vis and Pharos on the island of Hvar. However, Gnathia pottery, which from the second half of the 4th century BC begins to produce in the workshops in native Apulia, has found a wide market on the Eastern Adriatic. It is interesting to trace the distribution of Canosian (north Apulia) Gnathia products on the East Adriatic, and it is assumed that the potters from Canosa founded the local production of Gnathia pottery in Issa in the middle of the 3rd century.







    Read .....The Hellenization of Daunia: the Pottery as marker by Dr. Elena Calandra................daunians began making pots in Greek mode in 440BC , before then it was north-adriatic ............
    Last edited by vettor; 08-01-2021 at 04:14 PM.


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    from 2018 italian studies

    Maria Cecilia D’Ercole’s contribution in mapping the pathways and movement of goods in the southern Adriatic during Archaic times has significantly helped flesh out the situation.
    7
    Recent work by Croatian archaeologists who have documented sanctuaries on the‘island bridge’ spanning from the Dalmatian coast to the Gargano peninsula in Daunia, in use from at least the Neolithic period, also adds considerable weight to the argument.
    8
    The traffic was, however,no doubt two-way. The prevailing winds in the upper Adriatic and a clock-wise current, in concert with the ‘island bridge’, gave rise to strong maritime trade route that took in the Daunians (further signposted by sea-faring craft incised on their stelae
    9
    ) and Picinians on the west coast, and the Japodians, Histrians, Liburnians and Dalmatians (all ‘Illyrian tribes’) on the north and east.
    10
    It was likely mediated by the Liburnians, whose thalassocracy it is alleged by Appian was propped up by piracy(App.
    Ill
    . 1.3). Was the cultural affinity between Daunia and Illyria that appears to exist in the Iron Age, nicely illustrated by the spread of Daunian matt-painted pottery into the Balkans and of amber out, truly due to a shared ancestry or simply the result of continued trading relations and contact? The Daunian stelae suggest the former: that the ethnogenesis of the northern-most Iapygians really did include DNA from the indigenous populations of the eastern shores of the Adriatic


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    They are available on Global 25?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michalis Moriopoulos View Post
    We really need IA, classical, and Hellenistic samples from Magna Graecia and southern Greece itself to settle this question. If southern Greeks and Magna Graecians all look like Mycenaeans/Emporiotes in the classical period but suddenly look like Cretans after Alexander's conquests then we'll know it was Hellenistic mass migration from the Near East that is responsible for the East Med profile in Europe. If even Hellenistic samples from Magna Graecia and Greece don't look East Med, then we'll know it was Imperial Roman conquest that did it. Place your bets.
    I think what we would see is both, actually.

    In my opinion, in Magna Graecia, and even few centuries before when Magna Graecia's poleis are traditionally being considered to have began in S. Italy, starting from Late Helladic (which we saw in Fernandes et al. couple of years ago), you'd see mostly Mycenaean and probably few Anatolian-like Greeks settling. After the Hellenistic period, you'd probably see more Hellenized Anatolians and Near Easterners arriving but the Greek poleis were incorporated into the Roman Republic following the Pyrrhic wars in 275 BCE, only ~50 years after the death of Alexander the Great, so I don't know how much a Near Eastern-like admix from the Hellenistic period would influence pre-Roman Magna Graecia.

    It could be that Magna Graecia absorbed more Anatolian Greeks than mainland Greece itself, considering the movement was usually from Greece outward during the Classical period.

    On the other hand, it seems the movement of Greeks to the different colonies following the Hellenistic periods started pretty fast - Euclid died in 275 BCE already in Alexandria, Egypt. So perhaps when the Roman captured the Magna Graecia poleis they already managed to absorb some Near Eastern Hellenized migrants.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erikl86 View Post
    I think what we would see is both, actually.

    In my opinion, in Magna Graecia, and even few centuries before when Magna Graecia's poleis are traditionally being considered to have began in S. Italy, starting from Late Helladic (which we saw in Fernandes et al. couple of years ago), you'd see mostly Mycenaean and probably few Anatolian-like Greeks settling. After the Hellenistic period, you'd probably see more Hellenized Anatolians and Near Easterners arriving but the Greek poleis were incorporated into the Roman Republic following the Pyrrhic wars in 275 BCE, only ~50 years after the death of Alexander the Great, so I don't know how much a Near Eastern-like admix from the Hellenistic period would influence pre-Roman Magna Graecia.

    It could be that Magna Graecia absorbed more Anatolian Greeks than mainland Greece itself, considering the movement was usually from Greece outward during the Classical period.

    On the other hand, it seems the movement of Greeks to the different colonies following the Hellenistic periods started pretty fast - Euclid died in 275 BCE already in Alexandria, Egypt. So perhaps when the Roman captured the Magna Graecia poleis they already managed to absorb some Near Eastern Hellenized migrants.
    I don't understand why the migratory direction would be mostly from Anatolia, Levant and Egypt to the Aegean when in all accounts it was the reverse.
    The idea that Greek colonies started being "flooded" within a few generations by Easterners, even in Italy, seems bizzarre to me.
    Last edited by Granary; 08-01-2021 at 11:31 AM.

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