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Thread: The genetic origin of Daunians and the Pan-Mediterranean southern Italian Iron Age

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by vettor View Post
    assumptions are far more accurate than nationalistic propaganda

    Liburnia and its hinterland was big in the early iron-age .......I even presented their studied diets was far more from the land than the sea.

    Which personnel names ? ......what years, below 500BC ? ............

    what you can do is test the R1 sample and see if she links with any of these samples ..........

    forget about Teuta etc and the others from this Montengrian group , we all know that the illyrians did not arrive that far south until the wars against philip of Macedon, we all know the celts moved in after this, we all know the corinthians Greeks set up cities like Durres etc in northern albania and also cities in southern Montenegro circa 700BC ..............why do you leave this out
    Durrės was founded by Ancient Greek colonists from Corinth and Corcyra under the name of Epidamnos around the 7th century BC


    ..............the paper does not say affinity with Bosnians or Montenegrians ................why do you exclude these people?

    I have been telling you for a long time these Daunians ( messapic and other ) are from the North-Adriatic and not from Southern-Adriatic sphere
    Nationalistic propaganda? Where? And please before you reply, make sure you have actually read through my post because I have already answered some of your questions.

    You do realise that the Taulantii, a tribe inhabiting southern Illyria (present-day Albania specifically), were recorded centuries prior the birth of Philip II of Macedon? The war involving the Corinthian and Corcyrean Greeks against the Liburnians during the seventh century BCE was in part instigated by the Taulantii. It is also because of this war that the aforementioned Greeks ended up colonising the area of modern Durrės, which formerly was inhabited by local Illyrian peoples such as the Taulantii. I have told you this already numerous times providing clear sources and historiography.

    You do realise that we do not have Iron Age samples from Bosnia and Herzegovina and Montenegro, right?
    Last edited by Kelmendasi; 07-31-2021 at 09:15 PM.
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    Wonderful results. And totally excepted results for those of us versed in what Illyrian Y-DNA makeup should look like.

    Regarding the origins of Messapian groups. Archeological evidence points towards Southern Albania, not Croatia. Alojz Benac wrote an article on that particular topic. Matt-painted pottery of Southern Albania has a strong association with Messapian groups. We do not have yet results from S.Albania, these actually may be results of some Southern Albanian Illyrians.

    Now I'm going to look closely at some of those finds and their context. I-M223 find might be also interesting, as there are some Paleobalkan I-M223 clades, mostly found in the Eastern Balkan EBA.. And those two R1b's look P312- as one is P312+, so that should mean Z2103 or PF7562..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    Nationalistic propaganda? Where? And please before you reply, make sure you have actually read through my post because I have already answered some of your questions.

    You do realise that the Taulantii, a tribe inhabiting southern Illyria (present-day Albania specifically), were recorded centuries prior the birth of Philip II of Macedon? The war involving the Corinthian and Corcyrean Greeks against the Liburnians during the seventh century BCE was in part instigated by the Taulantii. It is also because of this war that the aforementioned Greeks ended up colonising the area of modern Durrės, which formerly was inhabited by local Illyrian peoples such as the Taulantii. I have told you this already numerous times providing clear sources and historiography.

    You do realise that we do not have Iron Age samples from Bosnia and Herzegovina and Montenegro, right?
    your nationalism is distorting your reasoning

    why are you ignoring the fact that bosnians and montengrians ( not even albanians ) are not mentioned and only croatians are ...............clearly the people testing, know about bosnians, Albanians and montenegrians and where to link these Daunians to


    You know very well that the Taulantii are one of 3 branches that came from Dardani tribes and they where not on the coast when the period of Daunians went to Italy


    let us keep to the topic about Daunians of the Iron-age Croatian group

    why don't you write to the people who did the test and tell them they are wrong and they should amend the paper .............why you arguing with me, when I see iron-age Croatians in the paper
    Last edited by vettor; 07-31-2021 at 09:27 PM.


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  6. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by vettor View Post
    when I see iron-age Croatians in the paper
    You have made my case for me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ariel90 View Post
    I guess that in this forum, most believe Greeks are responsible for the shift in Southern Italy, am I wrong? Presenting a dicotomy between Iron age and Imperial disregards everything that happened in Greek cities and in the rep era. But as I pointed out in the past, the last few samples that we have from the Rome paper in the IA are likely rep era, and have an east med profile, seemengly Greek shifted. We have 500 years of space to fill, and a bunch of Illyrian samples. You talk like you know for a fact that the shift happened in the Imperial era and because the empire, (and you talk like you won some kind of game). At least have the intellectual decency to make a full point, and explain how and when, proving some evidence, if possible. By early Imperial era, and probably late Republic Rome was already east med, so that overnight shift, couldn't possibly be caused by an Empire who wasn't born yet. I mean, and how that happened? People changed overnight with no remnants of the past?
    We discussed this before but to me the shift in most of peninsular Italy, geographically, has to really start after the Phyrric wars and incorporation of Greek cities in the Roman network.

    Before then I see no real argument why the mass of Italic tribes, even in the south, would have much Greek ancestry, we have fairly good archeological and written evidence on where and when the Greek settled and they left a lot of Southern Italy untouched even after 4-5 centuries of presence in coastal areas, heck they even lost a couple colonies to the locals.

    Isn't it more likely that progressively in the rep era Italic populations absorbed a Greek and and east med strata of sort?
    It's really not reasonable to expect there to have been a big influx of Greeks during the archaic or classical period, your same argument applies just as much, why would have hundreds of thousands of Greeks have migrated to places where "barbarians" lived and where they were foreigners(instead of citizens) instead of founding new polis like their brethren did?
    The only way for there to be much Greek ancestry in Italic population is either through migration of many Greeks or through conquests of Greek cities by Italic tribes and subsequent assimilation, which did happen but which can't justify much Greek ancestry anyway given what we know about the size of the Greek polis(territorially and demographically).

    if you think about the logistics of brining milions of people aroung the sea in ancient times in a populated area like the peninsula, that truly and literally couldn't have happened overnight.
    150-200 years(between the 2nd punic war and the end of the republic) is not overnight even if ignored the existing Greek colonies which I think everyone agrees played some role at least.

    Do we even know how Greeks were in classical time? And do we even know the genetic profile of magna Graecia?
    The Empuries samples, the Bulgarian iron age sample and the Mycenean sample give us a fairly good idea of what they could have looked like.

    Isn't it relevant, that the people spoke Greek in southern Italy even well into the Empire?
    It is relevant but again when one considers the actual size of the Greek territories, we cannot justify the idea that most of the Eastern ancestry in peninsular Italy comes from before 250-300 BCE. Really just look at at map of ALL the known colonies:
     



     



    The inland control of the Greek colonies in the map might even be exaggerated(in the second) when you look at archeological evidence and scholarly opinion and there is also the fact that the Italic tribes conquered various of those cities by time of the Phyrric war.
    Last edited by Granary; 07-31-2021 at 11:14 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Granary View Post
    We discussed this before but to me the shift in most of peninsular Italy, geographically, has to really start after the Phyrric wars and incorporation of Greek cities in the Roman network.

    Before then I see no real argument why the mass of Italic tribes, even in the south, would have much Greek ancestry, we have fairly good archeological and written evidence on where and when the Greek settled and they left a lot of Southern Italy untouched even after 4-5 centuries of presence in coastal areas, heck they even lost a couple colonies to the locals.


    It's really not reasonable to expect there to have been a big influx of Greeks during the archaic or classical period, your same argument applies just as much, why would have hundreds of thousands of Greeks have migrated to places where "barbarians" lived and where they were foreigners(instead of citizens) instead of founding new polis like their brethren did?
    The only way for there to be much Greek ancestry in Italic population is either through migration of many Greeks or through conquests of Greek cities by Italic tribes and subsequent assimilation, which did happen but which can't justify much Greek ancestry anyway given what we know about the size of the Greek polis(territorially and demographically).


    150-200 years(between the 2nd punic war and the end of the republic) is not overnight even if ignored the existing Greek colonies which I think everyone agrees played some role at least.


    The Empuries samples, the Bulgarian iron age sample and the Mycenean sample give us a fairly good idea of what they could have looked like.


    It is relevant but again when one considers the actual size of the Greek territories, we cannot justify the idea that most of the Eastern ancestry in peninsular Italy comes from before 250-300 BCE. Really just look at at map of ALL the known colonies:
     



     



    The inland control of the Greek colonies in the map might even be exaggerated(in the second) when you look at archeological evidence and scholarly opinion and there is also the fact that the Italic tribes conquered various of those cities by time of the Phyrric war.
    We don't disagree much, but I think you massively downplay the importance and population size of Magna Graecia, think about the Sicilian cities, like Syracuse (approximately numbered 250,000 in 415 BC and the population size of the city itself was probably similar to Athens_wikipedia). Magna Graecia changed the culture and religion of the peninsula significantly more than any foreign culture before or since. It was a huge phenomena, south of Rome you were in Greece, think about the temples, the name of the cities, the fact that people spoke Greek until Imperial period or even medieval times! Also your maps don't show much at all, to this day places in Southern Italy outside of major cities and the coast are basically uninhabited. Basilicata has 500k citizens and it's 80% the size of Campania that has 5 milion. Almost all major cities in Southern Italy were Greek, outisde of some in Northern Apulia and some Etruscan and Latin settlements on the coast in Campania. I would say that these were colonists, and if they were like the Empuries, they were actual pure Greeks, a very xenophobic group of people that wasn't prone to absorb others, think about Athenian citizenship. (We don't have a classic Greek sample or a Magna Graecia sample yet, we'll see, but it's resonable to expect some Empuries-like individual for sure, even by looking at today's southern Italy)
    Last edited by Ariel90; 07-31-2021 at 11:46 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ariel90 View Post
    We don't disagree much, but I think you massively downplay the importance and population size of Magna Graecia, think about the Sicilian cities, like Syracuse (approximately numbered 250,000 in 415 BC and the population size of the city itself was probably similar to Athens_wikipedia).
    Just a nitpick:

    https://www.princeton.edu/~pswpc/pdfs/morris/120509.pdf

    Quote:
    (Syracuse was roughly the same size as Athens, and a century later had between 50,000 and 100,000 inhabitants.)

    Magna Graecia changed the culture and religion of the peninsula significantly more than any foreign culture before or since. It was a huge phenomena, south of Rome you were in Greece, think about the temples, the name of the cities, the fact that people spoke Greek until Imperial period or even medieval times! Also your maps don't show much at all, to this day places in Southern Italy outside of major cities and the coast are basically uninhabited. Basilicata has 500k citizens and it's 80% the size of Campania that has 5 milion.
    Most of Campania was not under Greek control either, as wasn't the north-western half of Puglia, Abruzzo, Molise and even inland places in Calabria around Cosenza.

    Almost all major cities in Southern Italy were Greek, outisde of some in Northern Apulia and some Etruscan and Latin settlements on the coast in Campania. I would say that these were colonists, and if they were like the Empuries, they were actual pure Greeks, a very xenophobic group of people that wasn't prone to absorb others, think about Athenian citizenship. (We don't have a classic Greek sample or a Magna Graecia sample yet, we'll see, but it's resonable to expect some Empuries-like individual for sure, even by looking at today's southern Italy)
    Most people didn't live in cities at the time, so focusing only on them is misleading, also you argument about xenophobia makes it less likely for pre-Roman Greek influenced to have existed beyond the polis. In any case look at this modern density map with the Greek colonial areas transposed:

    Ignoring the fact that Napoli and its surroundings were not a metropolis like they are today(thus it wouldn't have included as many Campanians) one can see that there were plenty of dense rural areas that were not part of Greek cities.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    You have made my case for me.
    go ask the people who did the study and ask them also why they did not supply all 34 samples , as they stated

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ariel90 View Post
    We don't disagree much, but I think you massively downplay the importance and population size of Magna Graecia, think about the Sicilian cities, like Syracuse (approximately numbered 250,000 in 415 BC and the population size of the city itself was probably similar to Athens_wikipedia). Magna Graecia changed the culture and religion of the peninsula significantly more than any foreign culture before or since. It was a huge phenomena, south of Rome you were in Greece, think about the temples, the name of the cities, the fact that people spoke Greek until Imperial period or even medieval times! Also your maps don't show much at all, to this day places in Southern Italy outside of major cities and the coast are basically uninhabited. Basilicata has 500k citizens and it's 80% the size of Campania that has 5 milion. Almost all major cities in Southern Italy were Greek, outisde of some in Northern Apulia and some Etruscan and Latin settlements on the coast in Campania. I would say that these were colonists, and if they were like the Empuries, they were actual pure Greeks, a very xenophobic group of people that wasn't prone to absorb others, think about Athenian citizenship. (We don't have a classic Greek sample or a Magna Graecia sample yet, we'll see, but it's resonable to expect some Empuries-like individual for sure, even by looking at today's southern Italy)
    the paper says

    we know that they were mainly farmers, animal breeders, horsemen and maritime traders with an established trade network
    extending across the sea with Illyrian tribes. A fascinating aspect of this population, as opposed
    to their neighbours in Apulia, was their tenacious resistance to external influences. For instance,
    they did not acquire either social or cultural Hellenic elements and no Greek alphabet inscriptions


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    We really need IA, classical, and Hellenistic samples from Magna Graecia and southern Greece itself to settle this question. If southern Greeks and Magna Graecians all look like Mycenaeans/Emporiotes in the classical period but suddenly look like Cretans after Alexander's conquests then we'll know it was Hellenistic mass migration from the Near East that is responsible for the East Med profile in Europe. If even Hellenistic samples from Magna Graecia and Greece don't look East Med, then we'll know it was Imperial Roman conquest that did it. Place your bets.
    Last edited by Michalis Moriopoulos; 08-01-2021 at 12:53 AM.
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