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Thread: The genetic origin of Daunians and the Pan-Mediterranean southern Italian Iron Age

  1. #11
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    Three of the samples tested belong to Y-DNA haplogroup J2b-M241 (ORD014, SAL001, SAL010) with one of them being confirmed as M241>L283+ (ORD014), though I think the other two will also most certainly turn out to be L283+ as well. These results alongside other factors confirm an initial movement from Illyria into Apulia since we know from ancient DNA and modern samples that J2b-L283 can be associated with this historical region. Linguistics also indicates an original homeland in the western Balkans, the Messapic language shares numerous similarities with the Albanian language, enough to suggest that both languages either split off from the same linguistic group or had intense contacts with each other historically. In my opinion, the former is most likely.
    Last edited by Kelmendasi; 07-31-2021 at 10:05 AM.
    Ydna: J1>P58>YSC234>ZS241>BY32817 (Y179831)

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  3. #12
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    Is it odd that is not E-V13 there? I remember someone speaking of it being Messapian; guess it's back to square three then ; )

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    seems that Fig3 is the closest to indicate that messapic speakers and italic speakers were indeed of the same stock as they share the most drift; not sure if the sites were in apulia or further north on the adriatic but the early IA sites in italy clearly indicate that they all swooped over from the balkan and apart from sim. IE langs. it indeed looks like a common group altogether
    pretty sure that lepontic speakers and venetic speakers will follow suite

    app. SGR001 and ORD010 are from the medieval period
    skipping the whole EEF bush the former seems to have a slavic drift (though I1-M253) and the lady a north-european drift (?varangian nest)
    Last edited by alexfritz; 07-31-2021 at 12:26 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erikl86 View Post
    So all in all, Iron Age Apulians were similar to IA Romans with some affinity to Illyrians. Not surprising at all.

    "We find that Iron Age Apulian samples are still distant from the genetic variability of modern-day Apulians"

    ^ Not surprising to most of us, very disappointing to some who hoped IA S. Italians were already East Med-like thanks to "Neolithic admix from the East", and that the Eastern shift seen in Imperial era samples from Rome was limited only to that city because of it's Cosmopolitan nature
    Please don't go off topic with your political and ethnic tribalism.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nino90 View Post
    Please don't go off topic with your political and ethnic tribalism.
    The timing of the East Med shift has been a point of academic contention on this forum for years. And all you're doing is proving his point by attacking him for his completely accurate observation by trying to make it some kind of political issue (which it is not), something I've seen you do before. Not a good look, bro.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RCO View Post
    Very interesting the operations with the Caucasus Hunter-Gatherers (CHG) or Iranian Neolithic (IN) component probably associated with an ancient population who brought J2b there.
    If I understood the article correctly, the majority of the samples have affinities with the IA Romans and Croatians. Only some samples appear sporadically with increased CHG and Iran N such as that ORD009 sample that clusters in direction to CHG unlike it's mother. Unfortunately this sample is a female so no y-dna.
    This scenario where these IA Daunians have affinities with the IA Croatians doesn't give validity to a scenario where J-M241 would have been brought to Italy by an ancient population rich in CHG and Iran N components. Especially because the older samples with this y-dna such as one sample from MBA Croatia and one EBA sample from Mokrin, Serbia doesn't show such elevated CHG and Iran N components.
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    Am I reading the qpadm wrong or is it now showing significant iran_n and chg in the Iron Age apulians?

    Aspar, it seems most of the samples have Iran affinities, I don’t think the pca is capable of showing those finer drifts. Look at the qpadm I posted; tho I may be completely wrong.
    Last edited by darknorman11; 07-31-2021 at 12:49 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    Three of the samples tested belong to Y-DNA haplogroup J2b-M241 (ORD014, SAL001, SAL010) with one of them being confirmed as M241>L283+ (ORD014), though I think the other two will also most certainly turn out to be L283+ as well. These results alongside other factors confirm an initial movement from Illyria into Apulia since we know from ancient DNA and modern samples that J2b-L283 can be associated with this historical region. Linguistics also indicates an original homeland in the western Balkans, the Messapic language shares numerous similarities with the Albanian language, enough to suggest that both languages either split off from the same linguistic group or had intense contacts with each other historically. In my opinion, the former is most likely.
    Messapic, as far as the scarce epigraphic data (chiefly onomastic in nature) enable us to make pronouncements, looks like a relatively conservative form of Illyrian, hence the important lexical and morphophonological similarities with Albanian (in all likeliness a descendant of Dardanian, which probably was part of the same Illyrian dialect continuum). Considering this, the presence of J-L283 is to be expected in SAL001 & SAL010, it'll be interesting to see which kind of admixutre is required to model them correctly as this is surely bound to be the blueprint for Illyrian ancestry, considering how these three individuals are quite similar to IA Italians, the use of HRV_IA points in the direction of something resembling Helladic_MBA ancestry.

    This Western Mediterranean profile in an area that now has a firmly East Med profile serves not only to underscore the reality of the Iapygians' Illyrian background, it also shows that the East Med profile is essentially Aegean and that we're dealing with major population replacement in Southern Italy starting with Greek settlement during the Iron Age and possibly further reinforced by Roman resettlement (something that is also visible looking at the BA data from Sicily). It's a shame the paper doesn't include samples from Taranto and Lecce, because this really is the proverbial elephant in the room.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aspar View Post
    If I understood the article correctly, the majority of the samples have affinities with the IA Romans and Croatians. Only some samples appear sporadically with increased CHG and Iran N such as that ORD009 sample that clusters in direction to CHG unlike it's mother. Unfortunately this sample is a female so no y-dna.
    This scenario where these IA Daunians have affinities with the IA Croatians doesn't give validity to a scenario where J-M241 would have been brought to Italy by an ancient population rich in CHG and Iran N components. Especially because the older samples with this y-dna such as one sample from MBA Croatia and one EBA sample from Mokrin, Serbia doesn't show such elevated CHG and Iran N components.
    Correct, there's no way J-L283 made it to SE Italy or even the Balkans directly from the Caucasus or the Iranian plateau. If anything, this lineage is far likelier to have arrived in the Balkans from the Pontic-Caspian steppe during the EBA, having arrived on the steppe from the Caucasus. Regardless, the migrants who brought it to Italy almost certainly were HRV_IA or Helladic_MBA-like.
    Last edited by Agamemnon; 07-31-2021 at 11:40 PM.
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  16. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by darknorman11 View Post
    Am I reading the qpadm wrong or is it now showing significant iran_n and chg in the Iron Age apulians?

    Aspar, it seems most of the samples have Iran affinities, I don’t think the pca is capable of showing those finer drifts. Look at the qpadm I posted; tho I may be completely wrong.
    The sequencing runs were merged resulting in 16 individuals for genome-wide analysis: eight from Ordona, five from Salapia, and three from San Giovanni Rotondo. The final dataset includes individuals with an average genomic coverage between 0.031 - 0.995 and a number of single nucleotide polymorphisms (SNPs) overlapping with Human Origins 1240k between ~40,000 and ~810,000 (Data S1A). Out of those 16 individuals, we selected 10 individuals based on their proximity within the principal component analysis (PCA) space (Figure 1C) for radiocarbon dating and estimated their age between 1157 and 275 calBCE with a median date of 521 calBCE (Data S1. The radiocarbon dates confirm the archaeological dates of individuals from Salapia and Ordona as well as the Iron Age affiliation of the two San Giovanni Rotondo samples (SGR002 and SGR003). Two additional samples (ORD010 and SGR001) with a shift towards the Near East in the PCA (Figure 1C) were radiocarbon dated to 1078 - 1156 calCE (95.4%) and 670 - 774 calCE (95.4%) respectively (Data S1. Based on their dates, the samples were used as an external control for further analyses focusing on Iron Age Apulia (IAA)
    Well, since those two Medieval Apulians cluster in direction to Near East as opposed to IA Apulians and bear in mind that the two Medieval Apulians represent the PCA position of the modern Apulians very likely then the position of the IA Apulians fits precisely with the MBA Croatians.
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    You also have to laugh at the depiction of the Sea Peoples as a "BA nomadic population", nomads they certainly weren't, at least no more than the Mycenaeans whose culture suddenly makes an appearance in virtually every area those same "nomads" settled in during the EIA (see the following post), as for the use of Amhara_NAF, well... Considering how the authors are aware of the Iron I Ashkelonites, this is simply bewildering.
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