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Thread: The genetic origin of Daunians and the Pan-Mediterranean southern Italian Iron Age

  1. #91
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    Some food for thought for the slave land worker impact:

    For a study of social and economic questions an assessment of population is indispensable. It must make a difference to our picture of the agrarian troubles that vexed the late Republic, whether we take Italy to have been densely or thinly settled. Although debate continues on the causes, chronology, and extent of the ‘second-century crisis’ in Italy, a consensus has developed on its main symptom: the free peasantry, numbers already depleted by the burdens of military service, was displaced from the land by imported slaves and so continued to decline, a development which contributed significantly to the troubles of the succeeding century. Underpinning this consensus is widespread acceptance of what might be called the ‘Beloch-Brunt’ model of the demographic history of Italy in this period. This model suggests that between the late third century (Polybius' account of the numbers of Romans and Italians under arms in 225 B.C. permits an estimate of the total population) and the late first century (Augustus' first census of Roman citizens in 28 B.C., the first truly reliable one since the enfranchisement of the Italians) the free population had declined from about four and a half million people to about four million.
    https://www.researchgate.net/publica...taly_225-28_BC

    he latifundia and the growing urban centers were mutually supportive in that the large farms could supply the necessary food surplus cheaply, and their efficiency drove small farmers out of business and into the growing ranks of the poor plebeian (landless) class in the cities, thereby increasing the demand for food from the latifundia (Morley 2001). The use of slave labor on the latifundia led to unsuccessful insurrections by slaves in three Servile Wars in southern Italy and on Sicily during the years 135-132, 104-100, and 73-71 BCE.
    Rome was without rivals in the Mediterranean region at a time when most cultural and commercial centers were much smaller with populations of around 20,000 to 50,000, with some cities reaching hundreds of thousands (e.g., Alexandria). Morley (2001) has estimated that from 175 to 28 BCE, the total population of Italy increased from 4.5 to 12 million people, with a free (nonslave) urban count of 400,000 to 1.5-1.6 million. The fraction of the population working on farms may have been as high as 14% by 28 BCE (up from approximately 8% in 225 BCE)
    With silver flowing into Rome from defeated Carthage as war indemnity beginning in 241 BCE, and with foodstuffs from two other conquered islands, Sardinia and Corsica, Rome began the transition from small farms owned and worked by peasant families on the Italian peninsula to the latifundia dependent on slavery. This transition occurred first in southern Italy, Sicily, Sardinia, and Corsica, and then in the northernmost, coastal region of North Africa with a Mediterranean climate and soils. The latifundia emerged from the confiscation and consolidation (legal and illegal) of the small holdings previously owned and farmed by peasant families (agronomic enterprises that may have become unprofitable or fallen into disuse during the wars when the young men were conscripted). The latifundia were also established by distribution of conquered lands, described above, as a much coveted prize for military service and as a key investment of the patrician class in Rome. They were often parceled out in units of 2–200 iugera (approximately 0.5–50 ha), depending on the new owner’s years of military service or status in the Roman elite.
    https://www.researchgate.net/publica...pes_and_Olives
    Last edited by Riverman; 08-01-2021 at 04:20 PM.

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  3. #92
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    I hope we all realise there was no Greeks in the area in regards to the paper





    modern Taranto being the closest though


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    Chert is another main product that played an important trade role since the Neolithic.
    It has already been mentioned that the Gargano was an important center for chert. Palagruža also
    had a local chert quarry nearby. It’s been noted that chert of Palagruža were found in Dalmatia
    (Vis and Hvar) and Gargano chert was found on Palagruža itself. Concluding that these island
    chains were used in both directions across the Adriatic. In support of this theory is the fact that
    these island chains were visible by eye from Gargano, Apulia and from vis, Dalmatia.


    Chert has economic importance today as a source of silica. However, in the past, chert deposits may be associated with valuable deposits of iron in the iron-age.


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  5. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    Latifundia in Sardinia? That one left little genetic trace...

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    Quote Originally Posted by vettor View Post







    .
    Distribution of Daunian pottery in Croatia and Slovenia, its influence along the Amber Route to Central Europe............Barresi, Lucilla


    This PhD thesis deals with Daunian pottery produced in Daunia (South Italy) during the Iron Age and its distribution in Croatia and Slovenia. A systematic analysis of the pottery stored in museums has been made for Histria, Dolenjska and Notranjska. Thanks to this approach, not only it has been possible to identify the sites where this pottery was found, but also to define its style and typology, to specify its chronology, to provide for a quantitative analysis of the findings and produce maps of distribution. As regards Daunian pottery from Liburnia and Central Dalmatia, only published findings have been analyzed mainly from the point of view their style, typology and chronology. Results of the study enabled to clarify the nature of the relations between Daunia and the eastern coast of the Adriatic Sea, the flows of distribution of the Daunian geometric pottery and to evaluate the impact of its presence on local communities.


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  7. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    Not sure if anyone noticed this yet, but looking at the reported SNPs calls, one of the R1b-M269 samples:

    SGR002, San Giovanni Rotondo, 571 cal BCE, is R-Z2103+

    The other one that's left at M269 doesn't seem to have any calls for the SNPs they reported below this level.
    Did you see SAL001, Salapia, 9th-3rd cal BCE, is J-Z1297+
    My Y Line: J2a-L210>Z489>Z482>Y15222>Y15245

    My Maternal Y: R1b-U152>Z36>Y156527

    Great Grandparent (Maternal Grandfather's Mother's line) Y: R1b-U152>L2

    Great Grandparent (Maternal Grandmother's Mother's line) Y: I2-P78>A427>S23612>Y6396

    Other Y lines Confirmed: 3x GG on Maternal side: J2a-S25258>SK1336, 3x GG on Maternal side: J2a-M67, 4x GG on Maternal side: R1b-PF7562, 5x GG on Maternal side: E-V13, 5x GG on Maternal side: R2-L266

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  9. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    It might be that in cases like these my haplogroup might play a role and serve as a signaller, because if we consider everything we know at this point, E-V13 should have risen between the time of the classical Greek colonisation and Late Antiquity. Like with the rise of Eastern Mediterranean ancestry, it could have been one or more events. I think that Southern Italia was shifted in more than one migratory event, with the first really big one being indeed the Greek colonisation I wouldn't underestimate at all. However, it is nearly impossible that this Greek colonisation, as impactful as it was, explains the whole shift. Clearly the next big step being described by AlexFritz:



    I just don't agree with slaves playing no role. The reasons are as follows: Sicily and Southern Italy was much closer and easier to access from North Africa and the Near East via the sea routes, so they received quicker and easier both slaves and immigrants from these areas, even more so because, quite obviously, a Greek tongue would have been adavantageous as well, more so than in up in the North.

    Add to that the fact that in Southern Italy and Sicilia, which was quite productive with its agriculture, we deal with a different farming system. It was even more than in the rest of Italy about farming being primarily a business, with big Latifundia which really wore down their farming slaves, which might have been exchanged more regularly, with fresh human working material from abroad. But in the end, even with this constant exchange of the dependent and slave farming population, I expect a fairly significant shift towards the regions from which these slaves and workers came. And this is clearly the Eastern Mediterranean, especially in the area of Magna Graecia. This slave and farming system was definitely not the same throughout the empire and the numbers too weren't the same. Would be great to know the ratio of free men vs. slaves for every province. Even without having read such a study, I'm pretty sure that the ratio was worse for Rome and Southern Italy than much of the rest of the empire, with way more slaves and freedmen per free person, descendents from the region.

    What I do expect therefore is not one big shift, but a series of shifts from the Greek settlement, to the end of the Roman imperial era - with an actual backshift coming with the Germanic influences, even though it was small, I expect it to be significant nevertheless. With every shift in this series, the classical European ancestry will decrease and the East Mediterranean increase.
    Greek colonisation -> 1st shift.
    Conquest of Carthage -> 2nd shift
    Conquest of Greece and Hellenistic states -> 3rd shift
    Lafifundia system with slave workers -> constant shift over time

    You can read up in the primary historical sources which masses of people were send from a conquered place to the different provinces of the Roman Empire, as well as the mass migration of free people from the East which sought economic opportunities. One big conquest or newly acquired territory could change the population structure of a whole province in a significant way. And, like explained, there was not just one, but a series of such events.
    what we know from DNA sofar is that conquests, may it be carthage may it be gaul, did not provide any shifts or geneflow, making conquests a very low prob. source altogether; nonethless there was a population wide shift away from the IA cluster hin to two close clusters (med. and east-med.) dominating both the imeprial and late antiquity; and these samples dictate that said shift did not occurr within the imperial era; so it has to be a source from before and outside roman rule and the bondsmenship (indentured servitude), as it happened in the second century bc/bce from allied bithinia etc., ending with freedom and citizenhip, proves a great source and it is inline with roman law specially since romans were prohibited to intermix with slaves (see:results gauls or punics) but were permitted families with mutual citizens (liberti class)

    the fact that cluster C4 Near-East abruptly dissapears, with the change of power to constantinople, with limited to no influence on the other clusters C5/C6, underscorse that movements within the roman empire was again of a complete diff. nature
    Last edited by alexfritz; 08-01-2021 at 05:24 PM.
    GENO2.0 51SEURO 19WCEURO 13SCANDINAVIA 5ASIAMINOR 4EEURO 4GB/IRELAND 3ARABIA myOrigins 26ITA.PEN. 13GREECE&BALKANS 12SARDINIA 18GREATBRITAIN 14IRELAND 10C.EUROPE 8SCANDINAVIA DNA.Land 49NWEURO 27SEURO 13MED.ISLANDER 11SARDINIAN myHeritage 51.8NWEURO 33.2ITALIAN 7.9GREEK/S.ITALY 7.1BALKAN gencove 29NITALY 19EMED 15NBRITISLES 12SWEURO 10NCEURO 9SCANDINAVIA 6NEEURO GenePlaza 54.4NWEURO 37.6GRE/ALB 5.6WASIAN 2.4SWASIA LivingDNA 57.4S.GER 3.3NE.GER 25.8N.ITA 5S.ITA 4.3TUSCANY 2.5CYPRUS 1.7AEGEAN

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    The key point here, I think, is that a lot of these phenomena happened when Rome was still a Republic. Our Imperial samples, even from 0-100CE, are all east-med. It's reasonable to think that you will need literally hundreds of years to perfectly mix a population like that. The idea that the trasformation to an Empire immediately changed the population of urban Rome in a short period of time, a theory that people here think is "confirmed", is wacky and unsubstantiated. Now, as soon I saw the first paper on Rome, I tought, wow, something big happened between 500-100 BCE in the Italian peninsula demographically. Since by year 0 CE, the previous population was genetically nowhere to be found. But many people here tought: "overnight the entire population of the Italian peninsula was replaced by slaves". It's the power of ideology and preconceived ideas.

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  13. #99
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    The genetic change in Roman Italy took centuries and involved both free and slave incomers over a huge period of time from Late Republic to Late Empire.

    However the change from North-Italian-like to east Med Cypriot/Island Greek-like had occurred by the Late Empire in the West (Western Roman Empire CE/AD 395-476)).

    I don't think anybody has suggested a very swift change over a couple of generations from Iron Age Italian to East Mediterranean.
    Last edited by Cascio; 08-01-2021 at 05:33 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ariel90 View Post
    The key point here, I think, is that a lot of these phenomena happened when Rome was still a Republic. Our Imperial samples, even from 0-100CE, are all east-med. It's reasonable to think that you will need literally hundreds of years to perfectly mix a population like that. The idea that the trasformation to an Empire immediately changed the population of urban Rome in a short period of time, a theory that people here think is "confirmed", is wacky and unsubstantiated. Now, as soon I saw the first paper on Rome, I tought, wow, something big happened between 500-100 BCE in the Italian peninsula demographically. Since by year 0 CE, the previous population was genetically nowhere to be found. But many people here tought: "overnight the entire population of the Italian peninsula was replaced by slaves". It's the power of ideology and preconceived ideas.
    One needs to go back to when the romans where still under etruscan rule ( they ruled them for 200 years plus ) .................not including North-Italy and Sicily, the remainder of Italy was Etruscan in western part, Daunian and their associates from foggia to the heel of italy in the South-East, the Liburnians in Picene( marche ) lands and the remainder ( bulk ) where sub tribes of the Umbri


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