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Thread: The genetic origin of Daunians and the Pan-Mediterranean southern Italian Iron Age

  1. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ariel90 View Post
    Nonsense. You all can like his replies, but there is factual data that we already have that disproofs it.

    DATES OF IMPERIAL SAMPLES:


     

    R42
    SCR; 67; Isola Sacra
    U1a1
    --
    Isola Sacra
    Roman Imperial
    22 - 120 calCE
    Imperial Rome
    Imperial

    R80
    Viale Rossini; US 201
    U6a5
    --
    Viale Rossini (Necropoli Salaria)
    Roman Imperial
    23 - 130 calCE
    Imperial Rome
    Imperial

    R39
    SCR; 444; Isola Sacra
    J2b1c1
    --
    Isola Sacra
    Roman Imperial
    68 - 130 calCE
    Imperial Rome
    Imperial

    R436
    Palestrina Antina; I - II AD
    U5b3a
    --
    Palestrina Antina
    Roman Imperial
    0 - 200 CE
    Imperial Rome
    Imperial

    R111
    burial 45
    H
    R-PF7589
    Via Paisiello (Necropoli Salaria)
    Roman Imperial
    0 - 200 CE
    Imperial Rome
    Imperial

    R113
    burial 79
    H26a1
    E-V12
    Via Paisiello (Necropoli Salaria)
    Roman Imperial
    0 - 200 CE
    Imperial Rome
    Imperial

    R114
    burial 114
    U1b1
    --
    Via Paisiello (Necropoli Salaria)
    Roman Imperial
    0 - 200 CE
    Imperial Rome
    Imperial

    R115
    burial 132
    U4
    J-M92
    Via Paisiello (Necropoli Salaria)
    Roman Imperial
    0 - 200 CE
    Imperial Rome
    Imperial

    R116
    Via Paisiello; US 491
    U3a2
    J-Z631
    Via Paisiello (Necropoli Salaria)
    Roman Imperial
    0 - 200 CE
    Imperial Rome
    Imperial

    R131
    Via Paisiello; US 491
    T1a12
    G-FGC5089
    Via Paisiello (Necropoli Salaria)
    Roman Imperial
    0 - 200 CE
    Imperial Rome
    Imperial

    R75
    Viale Rossini; US 120
    H14a
    --
    Viale Rossini (Necropoli Salaria)
    Roman Imperial
    0 - 200 CE
    Imperial Rome
    Imperial

    R76
    Viale Rossini; US 121
    T2c1a
    J-L26
    Viale Rossini (Necropoli Salaria)
    Roman Imperial
    0 - 200 CE
    Imperial Rome
    Imperial

    R78
    Viale Rossini; US 152 (sample and label were wet when bag arrived)
    D4j11
    --
    Viale Rossini (Necropoli Salaria)
    Roman Imperial
    0 - 200 CE
    Imperial Rome
    Imperial

    R81
    Viale Rossini; US 206
    K1b1c
    J-M304
    Viale Rossini (Necropoli Salaria)
    Roman Imperial
    0 - 200 CE
    Imperial Rome
    Imperial

    R1551
    Monterotondo Imperial T.7 L.petrous 2.5.18
    H
    J-L26
    Monterotondo
    Roman Imperial
    55 - 211 calCE
    Imperial
    Imperial

    R835
    T.16A R.petrous, 2.5.2018
    H2a5
    J-P58
    Civitanova Marche
    Roman Imperial
    27 BCE - 300 CE
    Imperial
    Imperial

    R836
    T.19C, L. petrous, 2.5.2018
    H5n
    --
    Civitanova Marche
    Roman Imperial
    27 BCE - 300 CE
    Imperial
    Imperial

    R1547
    Monterotondo Imperial T.1 R petrous 2.5.18
    K1a7
    J-CTS5368
    Monterotondo
    Roman Imperial
    27 BCE - 300 CE
    Imperial
    Imperial

    R1548
    Monterotondo Imperial T.10 L. petrous 2.5.18
    H2a
    R-F1345
    Monterotondo
    Roman Imperial
    27 BCE - 300 CE
    Imperial
    Imperial

    R1549
    Monterotondo Imperial T.2A R. petrous 2.5.18
    U5b2b3
    J-CTS5368
    Monterotondo
    Roman Imperial
    27 BCE - 300 CE
    Imperial
    Imperial

    R1550
    Monterotondo Imperial T.5A 2.5.18
    T2c1c
    J-M67
    Monterotondo
    Roman Imperial
    27 BCE - 300 CE
    Imperial
    Imperial

    R123
    9
    T2a1b
    R-M269
    Casale del dolce
    Roman Imperial
    77- 213 calCE
    Imperial Rome/Late Antiquity
    Imperial

    R66
    t. 6; Anas; Petrosa
    T2
    R-M207
    ANAS (Azienda Nazionale Autonoma delle Strada)
    Roman Imperial
    100-300 CE
    Imperial Rome
    Imperial

    R67
    t. 15; Anas; Petrosa
    T2c1
    --
    ANAS (Azienda Nazionale Autonoma delle Strada)
    Roman Imperial
    100-300 CE
    Imperial Rome
    Imperial

    R68
    t. 34; Anas; Petrosa
    U7a4a1a
    J-L26
    ANAS (Azienda Nazionale Autonoma delle Strada)
    Roman Imperial
    100-300 CE
    Imperial Rome
    Imperial

    R69
    t. 44; Anas; Petrosa
    X2l
    --
    ANAS (Azienda Nazionale Autonoma delle Strada)
    Roman Imperial
    100-300 CE
    Imperial Rome
    Imperial

    R70
    t. 71; Anas; Petrosa
    T1a
    G-P303
    ANAS (Azienda Nazionale Autonoma delle Strada)
    Roman Imperial
    100-300 CE
    Imperial Rome
    Imperial

    R71
    Anas; Setl. H; T. 79
    H5+709
    --
    ANAS (Azienda Nazionale Autonoma delle Strada)
    Roman Imperial
    100-300 CE
    Imperial Rome
    Imperial

    R72
    t. 83; Anas; Petrosa
    T2g
    --
    ANAS (Azienda Nazionale Autonoma delle Strada)
    Roman Imperial
    100-300 CE
    Imperial Rome
    Imperial

    R73
    Anas; Setl. H; T. 88
    J2a1a1a
    --
    ANAS (Azienda Nazionale Autonoma delle Strada)
    Roman Imperial
    100-300 CE
    Imperial Rome
    Imperial

    R50
    Centocelle; ADL 2355; T.24
    H5
    J-M172
    Centocelle
    Roman Imperial
    135 - 244 calCE
    Imperial Rome
    Imperial

    R125
    25
    T2k
    --
    Casale del dolce
    Roman Imperial
    0 - 400 CE
    Imperial Rome/Late Antiquity
    Imperial

    R128
    65
    HV+16311
    J-CTS5368
    Casale del dolce
    Roman Imperial
    0 - 400 CE
    Imperial Rome/Late Antiquity
    Imperial

    R132
    Marcellino & Pietro; A
    R0a2j
    G-Z3428
    Marcellino & Pietro
    Roman Imperial
    136 - 326 calCE
    Late Antiquity
    Imperial

    R49
    Centocelle; ADL 2000; US 2335; T. 20
    H1u
    --
    Centocelle
    Roman Imperial
    0 - 400 CE
    Imperial Rome
    Imperial

    R51
    Centocelle; ADL; 2616
    U3b1
    --
    Centocelle
    Roman Imperial
    0 - 400 CE
    Imperial Rome
    Imperial

    R37
    SCR; 426; Isola Sacra
    U6a6a1
    --
    Isola Sacra
    Roman Imperial
    1 - 400 CE
    Imperial Rome
    Imperial

    R38
    SCR; 711; Isola Sacra
    T2d2
    --
    Isola Sacra
    Roman Imperial
    1 - 400 CE
    Imperial Rome
    Imperial

    R40
    SCR; 479; Isola Sacra
    K1a4a
    --
    Isola Sacra
    Roman Imperial
    1 - 400 CE
    Imperial Rome
    Imperial

    R41
    SCR; 306; Isola Sacra
    H5a1
    --
    Isola Sacra
    Roman Imperial
    1 - 400 CE
    Imperial Rome
    Imperial

    R43
    SCR; 148; Isola Sacra
    H7f
    --
    Isola Sacra
    Roman Imperial
    1 - 400 CE
    Imperial Rome
    Imperial

    R44
    SCR; 201; Isola Sacra
    T2
    J-M304
    Isola Sacra
    Roman Imperial
    1 - 400 CE
    Imperial Rome
    Imperial

    R45
    SCR; 510; Isola Sacra
    U3b1
    --
    Isola Sacra
    Roman Imperial
    1 - 400 CE
    Imperial Rome
    Imperial

    R1543
    Mazzano Romano Cranio 3
    H1e
    T-Z709
    Mazzano Romano
    Roman Imperial
    1 - 400 CE
    Imperial
    Imperial

    R1544
    Mazzano Romano T.1
    J1c
    --
    Mazzano Romano
    Roman Imperial
    1 - 400 CE
    Imperial
    Imperial

    R1545
    Mazzano Romana Tomba Camera Cranio 1
    H8c
    G-CTS9909
    Mazzano Romano
    Roman Imperial
    1 - 400 CE
    Imperial
    Imperial

    R47
    Centocelle; ADL 2000; US 2288; T 16
    J1c1c
    G-M406
    Centocelle
    Roman Imperial
    232 - 333 calCE
    Imperial Rome
    Imperial

    R126
    27
    U6a7c1
    --
    Casale del dolce
    Roman Imperial
    240 - 334 calCE
    Imperial Rome/Late Antiquity
    Imperial


    Closer populations for the older samples from 0-200CE

     
    Distance to: ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR81
    0.02652630 Greek_Dodecanese
    0.02724349 Greek_Kos
    0.02837481 Cypriot_B
    0.03420966 Cypriot
    0.03492268 Romaniote_Jew

    Distance to: ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR78
    0.03533127 Cypriot_B
    0.03894324 Cypriot
    0.03931554 Greek_Dodecanese
    0.04185105 Greek_Cappadocia
    0.04367629 Greek_Kos

    Distance to: ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR76
    0.03552978 Cypriot_B
    0.03728908 Cypriot
    0.03873798 Druze
    0.04059230 Greek_Central_Anatolia
    0.04072603 Lebanese_Druze

    Distance to: ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR75
    0.02509775 Cypriot_B
    0.02620138 Cypriot
    0.03392417 Greek_Dodecanese
    0.03473326 Romaniote_Jew
    0.03667830 Syrian_Jew

    Distance to: ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR131
    0.02601231 Italian_Campania
    0.02645610 Italian_Basilicata
    0.02764389 Italian_Apulia
    0.02773970 Italian_Calabria
    0.02780067 Italian_Abruzzo

    Distance to: ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR116
    0.01467455 French_Occitanie
    0.01651898 French_Auvergne
    0.02161204 Swiss_German
    0.02198333 French_Paris
    0.02218830 French_Nord

    Distance to: ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR115
    0.02061844 Greek_Dodecanese
    0.02122213 Greek_Kos
    0.02351407 Cypriot_B
    0.02818725 Greek_Crete
    0.02994344 Cypriot

    Distance to: ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR114
    0.02922621 Greek_Crete
    0.03237557 Italian_Calabria
    0.03253531 Greek_Dodecanese
    0.03261994 Italian_Apulia
    0.03265927 Italian_Campania

    Distance to: ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR113
    0.03926898 Italian_Apulia
    0.04002030 Italian_Abruzzo
    0.04087693 Sicilian_East
    0.04097213 Italian_Lazio
    0.04117567 Italian_Campania

    Distance to: ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR111
    0.03394784 Italian_Umbria
    0.03583923 Italian_Lazio
    0.03592189 French_Corsica
    0.03629133 Italian_Tuscany
    0.03876166 Italian_Marche

    Distance to: ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR436
    0.02888646 Greek_Kos
    0.03026886 Italian_Basilicata
    0.03052961 Greek_Izmir
    0.03106774 Italian_Campania
    0.03154245 Greek_Crete

    Distance to: ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR39
    0.02234914 Greek_Kos
    0.02274595 Greek_Dodecanese
    0.02510504 Cypriot_B
    0.03120844 Romaniote_Jew
    0.03232448 Cypriot

    Distance to: ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR80
    0.03492403 Moroccan_Jew
    0.03583118 Libyan_Jew
    0.03666790 Tunisian_Jew
    0.04855543 Italian_Jew
    0.04892654 Sephardic_Jew

    Distance to: ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR42
    0.02363433 Samaritan
    0.02455281 Lebanese_Christian_Greek_Orthodox
    0.02523012 Lebanese_Christian
    0.02537991 Palestinian_Beit_Sahour
    0.02594418 Lebanese_Christian_Maronite



    Literally everyone is east-med outside of a French outlier. One is Jewish-like, and one is Samaritan-like. Where are the Italics? This looks like a relatively homogeneous group, already fully east-med, today's people are less east-med. Why would we think that in 2,3 century more east-med was added to the mix? It's literally the contrary of what we are seeing?


    Now, the samples from Marcellino e Pietro, are still Imperial, 3,4 century CE.

     
    Distance to: ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR137
    0.02589486 Greek_Kos
    0.02812517 Greek_Dodecanese

    Distance to: ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR136
    0.01635912 Greek_Crete
    0.01646052 Italian_Campania

    Distance to: ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR134
    0.02168228 Romaniote_Jew
    0.02370379 Cypriot_B

    Distance to: ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR133
    0.02434908 Greek_Kos
    0.03016181 Greek_Dodecanese

    Distance to: ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR130
    0.02846520 Cypriot
    0.02918553 Cypriot_B

    Distance to: ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR36
    0.02068740 Italian_Marche
    0.02131700 Italian_Umbria


    They are basically indentical. Not suggestive of a continuous influx.

    But in Mausoleo di Augusto: 332 - 419 calCE

    you have this guy:

    Distance to: ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR31
    0.03482264 Danish
    0.03609285 English
    0.03618391 Dutch
    0.03625664 Norwegian

    The empire was falling apart, germanic warriors were used to replenish the army. Not surprising to see this guy.

    Edit: If Rome was already east-med by 1 century CE. How is it possible to have modern central Italians that have obviously more Italic and less east-med and at the same time have an influx of people in the 2,3 century that shifted Rome ever more east? Is it reasonable to think that there was a continuous influx of people in a city with a shrinking population? If anything, there was an influx of more Italic like individual, like we see in Late Antiquity samples.
    It has to be said that the Late Republic/Early Empire was the period where the massive growth in the private sector associated with the Pax Romana was the most in evidence, and this period basically ended already by the 200s. Bulk trade in grain and oils peaked in the period 100sBC-150sAD, for example, and phenomena like the decline of self-sufficient subsistence farms and the dominance of large export-oriented latifundia full of slave labor are likely most intense in that period, declining afterwards. You can look at these:
    Roman shipwrecks
    Lead emissions
    Economic measures

    The later Empire was not like the early Empire, with declining mobility of people and goods and the emergence of armed groups with local bases of power and proto-Feudalism (bonded labor who were tied to the land). Large latifundia were less important in an economy with more local circulation of goods and more self-sufficient rural elites. So I won't be surprised if the "East-Mediterraneanisation" of the Italian peninsula and the rest of the Empire began to cease already by the 100s AD.
    Last edited by Ryukendo; 08-01-2021 at 08:55 PM.
    Quoted from this Forum:

    "Which superman haplogroup is the toughest - R1a or R1b? And which SNP mutation spoke Indo-European first? There's only one way for us to find out ... fight!"

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    " No, you are in the wrong... I really hope that you are not jumping on my thread with intent to harass me, just like other "receiving comitee", that unites in classic bullying unity, which makes me sad about such people, deprived of love etc.... "

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  3. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ariel90 View Post
    I don't even know what to say. If every single Imperial sample that we have it's not even close to Italics. In fact, not any closer than more Latians. How that is even possible that this was a rapid phenomena? What are we talking here? One century? At least we are talking two, three century, Right? So, by early Empire there are no Italic-like samples, thusly, we have to go back 2 or 3 centuries. Interesting, no? Where big demographic changes were happening in Rome. Where the city got really big. Where there were a bunch of slaves revolts. From Wikipedia: "The First Servile War of 135–132 BC was a slave rebellion against the Roman Republic, which took place in Sicily. The revolt started in 135 when Eunus, a slave from Syria who claimed to be a prophet. Soon after, Cleon, a Cilician slave, stormed the city of Agrigentum on the southern coast, slaughtered the population" I'm surprised that people ignore the fact that in middle-late Republic there was a bunch of problems with both slaves and lower class populace. But in the imperial era, nothing of that magnitude. There is evidence that the biggeste influx of people and slaves was in those centuries.
    Look at my post above, I'm not disagreeing with you. Rome's private economy (with its bulk trade of agricultural goods such as oils) peaked in the late Republic and early Imperial period, so much of this process would have taken place in the Late Republic era.
    Quoted from this Forum:

    "Which superman haplogroup is the toughest - R1a or R1b? And which SNP mutation spoke Indo-European first? There's only one way for us to find out ... fight!"

    " A Basal Eurasian and an Aurignacian walk into a bar... "

    " No, you are in the wrong... I really hope that you are not jumping on my thread with intent to harass me, just like other "receiving comitee", that unites in classic bullying unity, which makes me sad about such people, deprived of love etc.... "

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    We should also keep in mind that urban dwellers from those quarters were most likely not representative for every other social stratum, region, village or town. So while the shift was drastic, more so in the slums and migrant quarters of Rome, as well as the South, this doesn't have to mean that the Italic ancestry actually disappeared.
    It rather got reduced, mixed and really disappeared from some places and social strata.
    But probably 10 km from Rome, in a region further away from the main hubs, latifundia and trade routes, the situation could have been very different.
    We don't really know without way more test results.

    What we do know by now is that the MENA-oriented shift took place and changed the genetic landscape of Italia on the longer run. I'd assume with balancing and homogenisation trends over time which brought the old Italic, the East Mediterranean and New Balkan and Northern-Central European elements together in a more harmonised mix.
    The main reason for the North-South divide we have in moderns is that the ratio of these three main elements varied in every region at the beginning of the Medieval time and the more MENA-shifted ancestry was just stronger in the South.

    I don’t think its that complicated. Of the original Italic and Illyrian people not that much survived in the South of Italy. We will see whether its more in other places.
    Last edited by Riverman; 08-01-2021 at 08:57 PM.

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  7. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ariel90 View Post
    The population of Imperial Rome was remarkably homogeneous. (People here are saying things like Rome was heterogenous and they are getting likes, literally not true, there were more diversity as a % of the population in the Iron age)




    There are 3 Euro outliers, and 7 Middle eastern outliers, there are some 30-40 east-med.
    The fact that this isn't the homogeneity that people expected, doesn't change this fact. Imperial Rome, since the start, had an east-med genetic profile. It's a fact, it's fact, it's fact. If you don't like it, it's still a fact.
    I can't agree with the idea that the Imperial Romans were homogeneous though. Go to page 56 of this document: https://science.sciencemag.org/conte...Antonio_SM.pdf, and compare the ADMIXTURE plot of a "natural" (presumably panmictic) population like the modern C Italians, with the Imperial Romans. Even if you remove the outliers, the Imperial Romans are notably choppy.

    Something simple to test this is the following: how common is it for individuals from the same modern population label (e.g. English_Kent, English_Cornwall, Italian_Tuscan) to have distances of .035 from each other on G25? Which seems to be the median value for the Imperial Romans in your list. We can check if G25 is telling us what you think it does.

    I also remember Michalis (@Michalis if you can find the thread) making models for a lot of the Imperial Romans, and finding that many can be 1st-gen/2nd-gen mixtures of different populations, with the identities different for many of them.
    Last edited by Ryukendo; 08-01-2021 at 08:56 PM.
    Quoted from this Forum:

    "Which superman haplogroup is the toughest - R1a or R1b? And which SNP mutation spoke Indo-European first? There's only one way for us to find out ... fight!"

    " A Basal Eurasian and an Aurignacian walk into a bar... "

    " No, you are in the wrong... I really hope that you are not jumping on my thread with intent to harass me, just like other "receiving comitee", that unites in classic bullying unity, which makes me sad about such people, deprived of love etc.... "

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ariel90 View Post
    The population of Imperial Rome was remarkably homogeneous. (People here are saying things like Rome was heterogenous and they are getting likes, literally not true, there were more diversity as a % of the population in the Iron age)




    There are 3 Euro outliers, and 7 Middle eastern outliers, there are some 30-40 east-med.
    The fact that this isn't the homogeneity that people expected, doesn't change this fact. Imperial Rome, since the start, had an east-med genetic profile. It's a fact, it's fact, it's fact. If you don't like it, it's still a fact.
    To do this comparison properly, we will need to know more information about the list: are the figures here the distance of Roman_Imperial individuals from Roman_Imperial_Average?
    If it is we should compare the same thing for the other, modern populations with panmixia. @Thread, if anyone of you can go on one of the G25 services to check this for a modern population like English_Cornwall or Italian_Tuscan, I'm sure we'll appreciate it greatly in this thread!
    Quoted from this Forum:

    "Which superman haplogroup is the toughest - R1a or R1b? And which SNP mutation spoke Indo-European first? There's only one way for us to find out ... fight!"

    " A Basal Eurasian and an Aurignacian walk into a bar... "

    " No, you are in the wrong... I really hope that you are not jumping on my thread with intent to harass me, just like other "receiving comitee", that unites in classic bullying unity, which makes me sad about such people, deprived of love etc.... "

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    It turns out there is already a PCA with convex hulls, which allows us to make the relevant comparisons, on pg 59 of this document: https://science.sciencemag.org/conte...Antonio_SM.pdf. The relevant comparison for the Imperial Romans, which occupy a very large space even with the outliers removed, will probably be with some populations which we know are likely homogeneous and not multicomponental like England_IA or Yamnaya/Poltavka.
    Quoted from this Forum:

    "Which superman haplogroup is the toughest - R1a or R1b? And which SNP mutation spoke Indo-European first? There's only one way for us to find out ... fight!"

    " A Basal Eurasian and an Aurignacian walk into a bar... "

    " No, you are in the wrong... I really hope that you are not jumping on my thread with intent to harass me, just like other "receiving comitee", that unites in classic bullying unity, which makes me sad about such people, deprived of love etc.... "

  12. #117
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    Y-DNA (P)
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    mtDNA (M)
    T1a1

    Republic of Venice Italy Veneto Italy Tuscany Italy 1861-1946 European Union Italy
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryukendo View Post
    I can't agree with the idea that the Imperial Romans were homogeneous though. Go to page 56 of this document: https://science.sciencemag.org/conte...Antonio_SM.pdf, and compare the ADMIXTURE plot of a "natural" (presumably panmictic) population like the modern C Italians, with the Imperial Romans. Even if you remove the outliers, the Imperial Romans are notably choppy.

    Something simple to test this is the following: how common is it for individuals from the same modern population label (e.g. English_Kent, English_Cornwall, Italian_Tuscan) to have distances of .035 from each other on G25? Which seems to be the median value for the Imperial Romans in your list. We can check if G25 is telling us what you think it does.

    I also remember Michalis (@Michalis if you can find the thread) making models for a lot of the Imperial Romans, and finding that many can be 1st-gen/2nd-gen mixtures of different populations, with the identities different for many of them.
    Italy_IA wasn't homogeneous to begin with.



    Modern Germans, for example, would be more homogeneous. But 3/4 or more of Imperial Romans would have stayed in the 0.05 range, the range of modern German diversity, so...


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  14. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ariel90 View Post
    I don't even know what to say. If every single Imperial sample that we have it's not even close to Italics. In fact, not any closer than more Latians. How that is even possible that this was a rapid phenomena? What are we talking here? One century? At least we are talking two, three century, Right? So, by early Empire there are no Italic-like samples, thusly, we have to go back 2 or 3 centuries. Interesting, no? Where big demographic changes were happening in Rome. Where the city got really big. Where there were a bunch of slaves revolts. From Wikipedia: "The First Servile War of 135–132 BC was a slave rebellion against the Roman Republic, which took place in Sicily. The revolt started in 135 when Eunus, a slave from Syria who claimed to be a prophet. Soon after, Cleon, a Cilician slave, stormed the city of Agrigentum on the southern coast, slaughtered the population" I'm surprised that people ignore the fact that in middle-late Republic there was a bunch of problems with both slaves and lower class populace. But in the imperial era, nothing of that magnitude. There is evidence that the biggeste influx of people and slaves was in those centuries.
    More heat than light.

    I'm saying it's the opposite of a rapid phenomenon.

    Where could Italics come from in the Rome area of the Early Empire if the population was already East Mediterranean as you admit?

    We have no proof that rural areas were any less affected by incomers, slave and free, from the East Med including Anatolia.

    In any case, freedmen are found in every conceivable activity in Italy of the Early Empire even in country areas and most came from the East Mediterranean countries.
    Roman citizens developed a real aversion to manual labour because of the ubiquity of slaves and above all freedmen engaged in skilled labour and also in the professions.
    Last edited by Cascio; 08-01-2021 at 09:18 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ariel90 View Post
    Italy_IA wasn't homogeneous to begin with.



    Modern Germans, for example, would be more homogeneous. But 3/4 or more of Romans would have stayed in the 0.05 range, the range of modern German diversity, so...

    I don't think that modern Germans are a panmictic population, not if Germans in the G25 all come from different parts of Germany. The relevant comparison is with populations like English_Cornwall/Kent or Italian_Tuscan/Abruzzo etc. This will tell us if Imperial Romans from the main cluster look like they are part of a population that have been mixing with each other for a long time (I think you'll find that they aren't).

    Can you repeat this with English_Cornwall or Italian_Tuscan?
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  18. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryukendo View Post
    It turns out there is already a PCA with convex hulls, which allows us to make the relevant comparisons, on pg 59 of this document: https://science.sciencemag.org/conte...Antonio_SM.pdf. The relevant comparison for the Imperial Romans, which occupy a very large space even with the outliers removed, will probably be with some populations which we know are likely homogeneous and not multicomponental like England_IA or Yamnaya/Poltavka.
    This is also relevant. Not all the Imperial samples are actually from Rome. Smaller communities look more homogenous.

    Last edited by Ariel90; 08-01-2021 at 09:21 PM.

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