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Thread: The genetic origin of Daunians and the Pan-Mediterranean southern Italian Iron Age

  1. #281
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    Quote Originally Posted by xripkan View Post
    Locri is in Reggio Calabria. This region has been settled by Greeks of late Byzantine and Ottoman period. I find very possible they brought your clade to the region.
    The town we hail from, Ciminà was said to have been formed roughly mid 1400's by refugees when Constantinople fell. At least thats what the Italian Wikipedia says. I have no source beyond that, but it seems like it could make sense. Doesnt help in the overall where did E-V13 come from though
    E-V13 -> E-PH1246 -> E-BY14160*
    distance%=4.6465"
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  3. #282
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huban View Post
    Clearly you believe in predetermined destiny that certain haplogroups are destined to be found in elite burials, while certain haplogroups are "destined" to be found in "non-elite" context. It is also clear in this context that you view the E-V13 unfavorably while you view the J-L283 favorably.



    ​I know their origin pretty well. I was shown one document privately that indicated their origin was from Wallachia. And now that a Greek and Bulgarian have joined Mataruga cluster it only makes Shoshi and Bobi (?) as Late Antiquity migrants from Central Balkans into N.Albania.. I didn't expect another Bulgarian with Mataruga. Yes Matarugas should be related to Mataranga, and the origin of this term is not clear, and is disputed. Actually Albanian Arberesh Mataranga is I-YP3120.



    ​ The information is real and reliable, but apparently because you don't like it, it is to be questioned.. Besides this information just confirms earlier information.



    ​ Clearly if you had any knowledge of the archeological landscape in Bulgaria/Thrace you would have realized what this and related cultures were and what they represented. The culture dominated by V13 (yes dominated 3/3) was an elite group, which totally dominated most of Thrace and even made incursions into Greece. So this elite was E-V13.. aDNA says that. And why is it so important for you to prove it wasn't?? So that 20 % more of your ethnicity can be paraded as "descendants of Illyrians"?? That is a clearly irrational motive on your part unless someone has promised benefits for Albanians based on a number of people of Illyrian descent??

    ​ And what do you know about your ethnicity to begin with. My humble opinion atm. is that Albanians are ethnically neither Illyrians nor Thracians, but a 3rd group of isolated pre-Illyrian and pre-Thracian stratum that was off Roman radar unlike Illyrians or Thracians, and it exploded demographically in early Medieval times, and was initially carried by R-Z2705 alone.. I think Albanians speak more likely the language descended of Paeonians, or Dardanians (of Troy) rather than the other two. I don't think origin of Albanians is dependent on anything other than R-Z2705.. And that is still very much undetermined.
    Interesting opinion on your last paragraph. What do you make of the rumored N. Albania samples though? They seem not to fit that theory.

    Also, wanted to ask. But isn't it almost impossible for a single haplogroup to carry a whole proto-ethnicity/language?

    I mean. Think about it. Countless times I have read, and I am sure you know what I am refering to, that Thracians and Illyrians might have been related. That the languages itself might have been related. And also, looking at the Albanian language as the only deciding factor of Albanian ethnicity, if you see the characteristics and the loanwords, it is kind of obvious the language was not isolated. You do not get to fall through the cracks and still borrow heavily from your overlords, as well as get your seed spread as far as Britain, if you are a "3d isolated group, of neither Illyrians or Thracians completely off the radar of the Romans".

    Just my 2 cents.
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  5. #283
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    Quote Originally Posted by digital_noise View Post
    The town we hail from, Ciminà was said to have been formed roughly mid 1400's by refugees when Constantinople fell. At least thats what the Italian Wikipedia says. I have no source beyond that, but it seems like it could make sense. Doesnt help in the overall where did E-V13 come from though
    My paternal ancestors were also mid 1400's refugees from Constantinople that moved to southern Greece. I know that my surname exists not only in Greece but in Reggio Calabria as well.
    Multiple waves of migrants came to Reggio Calabria and Salento (maybe other south Italian regions as well) during 15th, 17th and even 18th century.
    Distance: 2.2672% / 0.02267223
    Target: Christos_scaled
    78.1 update_Peloponnese(Lakonia+Arkadia+older academic samples)
    21.9 Greek_Thessaly

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  7. #284
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    Quote Originally Posted by rafc View Post
    A recent attempt at analyzing V13 lineages from this region can be found here
    Thanks!

    The old problem with the current data base. E-V13 was largely confined to a small community after being, with other E1b1b, assimilated by the steppe people, most likely living in the Northern Carpathians in the context of a culture specialised in mining and forging. From that point up to 1600-1300 BC, there was only a moderate growth. But in this time, 1600-1300 BC, I'm assuming they formed something like "their own ethnic-tribal group", in which E-V13 became dominant from the old E1b1b clan which survived the steppe expansion. The real expansion starts only with the Urnfield culture, when they adopted the combination of Channelled Ware, cremation and iron processing they lifted off, being among the first people in the world to have created a mass production of iron weapons, like attested in the huge fortress of Teleac. This is when they swarmed out in all directions, but the North, because there were allied or stronger, Urnfield people, mostly Lusatian, so that path was blocked.
    But the expansive period with tribes, clans and individuals moving in all directions didn't end there, because it even intensified with the Thraco-Cimmerian horizon (Cimmerian and Scythian influences, in some regions even upper class), which led to even more refined weaponry, better horsemanship, a more pastoralist and even more aggressive way of life, as well as for many coming back to inhumation burials. This period once more transitioned fluently into the Hallstatt culture, which created a network in which they travelled from the Ukraine to France and from Germany to Italy, which included Greece which became a cultural impulse driver. This ended only about 500-400 BC, especially with the big Scythian incursions and the emergence of the more Western and Celtic La Tene civilisation.
    Anything before 500 BC is hard to get a safe ethnic label, unless its really confined to just one region since older times and this being proven by many samples, better ancient DNA.

    All the branches and clades with a TMRCA older than 500 BC, even worse older than 1100 BC, are completely useless on their own, for making any kind of ethnic-migratory prediction. Because that's still within the generalised phase of E-V13, when they moved up and down, clans split, individuals moved out, many just settled down and became part of the ethnicties and regions we know from history many generations later.

    That makes the Southern Italian and Sicilian clades, as far as we know and you described them, with the exception of recent Albanian derived immigrants, a largely independent branching event. Very typical for that are subclades with CEE, especially from the Czech Republic, Slovakia, Hungary, Romania and Ukraine, with the old Northern branches. That speaks for itself, but doesn't help the debate. Because they really could descent from old branches of people, including Dacian, Thracian, Illyrian and Greek, which no longer exist in their former homeland or being now so rare, that they were not covered with the low sampling and detection rate.

    Concerning elite vs. commoners vs. slaves. Many people and lineages which were the elites one day, became the slaves the next and vice versa. These kind of founding events prove it. Around 3.000-2.000 BC, E1b1b was, after the steppe expansion, almost going extinct in CEE. It barely survived. But because of a good position for just one individual, later one clan, it rose to prominence in the Eastern Urnfield cult(ure) and the Early Iron Age, when it surely became dominant or one of the dominant lineages in various regions. In Pannonia replacing exactly those lineages, which participated in its near extinction 1.500 years earlier. So the tides can change and they did change again.

    Using E-V13 as a marker for where paternal lineages came from to change Southern Italia and Sicily, for which they are better suited than some others, because of their late arrival, we need younger TMRCA clades. If those do not exist at all, like for some Celtic and Slavic-Germanic E-V13 clades too, we have to assume they entered the region fairly early, or the younger source groups being not sampled yet or don't exist any longer, like Greek or Dacian people which went largely extinct at home and left only traces which weren't picked up by the current sampling.
    Last edited by Riverman; 08-03-2021 at 10:56 PM.

  8. #285
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    Quote Originally Posted by R.Rocca View Post
    This is starting to get waaaaay off topic and obviously has hit a nerve between the two of you. This thread is about a study that has no samples from Albania nor a single E-V13 sample, so please start another thread on this topic so that one gets locked instead of this one.

    Thanks.
    This is just the way it goes at this point half the forum is Balkan stuff. Sometimes i think there should be a specific forum for Balkan history and genetics stuff so we dont take over everything else currently we have national forums but they are not good for cross country stuff because of language barier.

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  10. #286
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Interesting opinion on your last paragraph. What do you make of the rumored N. Albania samples though? They seem not to fit that theory.

    Also, wanted to ask. But isn't it almost impossible for a single haplogroup to carry a whole proto-ethnicity/language?

    I mean. Think about it. Countless times I have read, and I am sure you know what I am refering to, that Thracians and Illyrians might have been related. That the languages itself might have been related. And also, looking at the Albanian language as the only deciding factor of Albanian ethnicity, if you see the characteristics and the loanwords, it is kind of obvious the language was not isolated. You do not get to fall through the cracks and still borrow heavily from your overlords, as well as get your seed spread as far as Britain, if you are a "3d isolated group, of neither Illyrians or Thracians completely off the radar of the Romans".

    Just my 2 cents.
    Maybe this helps you with something. This is something that influences me towards that POV.

    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....505#post789505

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    Quote Originally Posted by Huban View Post

    ​ The information is real and reliable, but apparently because you don't like it, it is to be questioned.. Besides this information just confirms earlier information.



    ​ Clearly if you had any knowledge of the archeological landscape in Bulgaria/Thrace you would have realized what this and related cultures were and what they represented. The culture dominated by V13 (yes dominated 3/3) was an elite group, which totally dominated most of Thrace and even made incursions into Greece. So this elite was E-V13.. aDNA says that. And why is it so important for you to prove it wasn't?? So that 20 % more of your ethnicity can be paraded as "descendants of Illyrians"?? That is a clearly irrational motive on your part unless someone has promised benefits for Albanians based on a number of people of Illyrian descent??

    ​ And what do you know about your ethnicity to begin with. My humble opinion atm. is that Albanians are ethnically neither Illyrians nor Thracians, but a 3rd group of isolated pre-Illyrian and pre-Thracian stratum that was off Roman radar unlike Illyrians or Thracians, and it exploded demographically in early Medieval times, and was initially carried by R-Z2705 alone.. I think Albanians speak more likely the language descended of Paeonians, or Dardanians (of Troy) rather than the other two. I don't think origin of Albanians is dependent on anything other than R-Z2705.. And that is still very much undetermined.
    Mataruga is a tribe from northern Albania/Montenegro. Mataranga is a region of south-central Albania which was used as a surname for many different families (the feudal Mataranga family had no male heirs and was inherited by the Muzaka by 1372). You're mixing totally unrelated regions, families etc. The origin of this confusion on ex-Yugoslav internet fora (the only place it actually exists) is an author from Serbia who was obviously very unfamiliar with Albanian geography.

    "Real and reliable" results are published. Everything you say about "E-V13 dominated Thracians" is based on no actual data. When we get results about E-V13, we'll discuss about it.

    The only place one is reading about the "Bessi theory" these days is on internet fora because: From a linguistic point of view it emerges that the Thracian-Bessian hypothesis of the origin of Albanian should be rejected, since only very little comparative linguistic material is available (the Thracian is attested only marginally, while the Bessian is completely unknown), but at the same time the individual phonetic history of Albanian and Thracian clearly indicates a very different sound developement that cannot be considered as the result of one language. Furthermore, the Christian vocabulary of Albanian is mainly Latin, which speaks against the construct of a "Bessian church language".[16] The elite of the Bessi tribe was gradually Hellenized.[17][18] Low level of borrowings from Greek in the Albanian language is a further argument against the identification of Albanian with the Bessi.[19]


    You really should update your sources. The Daunians were a Messapic-speaking people. The Messapian language is closely linked to Albanian, exactly because they come from the same populations patrilineally. To get back to the paper about Daunians, what the presence of J2b-L283, R1b-M269 and possibly I-M223 showed is that the linguistic connection between Messapian and Albanian is related to population flows from the Balkans to Italy.
    Last edited by Bruzmi; 08-04-2021 at 01:51 AM.

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  13. #288
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    Quote Originally Posted by R.Rocca View Post
    This is starting to get waaaaay off topic and obviously has hit a nerve between the two of you. This thread is about a study that has no samples from Albania nor a single E-V13 sample, so please start another thread on this topic so that one gets locked instead of this one.

    Thanks.
    Agreed. This is about the Daunians and southern Italy.

  14. #289
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruzmi View Post

    You really should update your sources. The Daunians were a Messapic-speaking people. The Messapian language is closely linked to Albanian, exactly because they come from the same populations patrilineally. To get back to the paper about Daunians, what the presence of J2b-L283, R1b-M269 and possibly I-M223 showed is that the linguistic connection between Messapian and Albanian is related to population flows from the Balkans to Italy.
    The isotopes of the Daunians clearly show only an Italian and Croatian mix



    My Path = ( K-M9+, LT-P326+, T-M184+, L490+, M70+, PF5664+, L131+, L446+, CTS933+, CTS3767+, CTS8862+, Z19945+, BY143483+ )


    Grandfather via paternal grandmother = I1-CTS6397 yDna
    Great grandmother paternal side = T1a1e mtDna
    Son's mtDna = K1a4p

  15. #290
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruzmi View Post
    The Daunians were a Messapic-speaking people. The Messapian language is closely linked to Albanian, exactly because they come from the same populations patrilineally. To get back to the paper about Daunians, what the presence of J2b-L283, R1b-M269 and possibly I-M223 showed is that the linguistic connection between Messapian and Albanian is related to population flows from the Balkans to Italy.
    J2b is extremely likely. The R-M269 that is Z2103+ is certainly very possible, but obviously not the R-M269 that is R-P312. I-M223 has been in Italy for a long time though.
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543 >> PR5365, Pietro Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

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