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Thread: Excessive scandinavian on all GEDmatch and G25 calculators.

  1. #1
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    Excessive scandinavian on all GEDmatch and G25 calculators.

    On pretty much every single population fit, I get somewhere between 55 and 65 percent Scandinavian. My paper trail puts me at roughly 65% English, mostly southeast, then some varying amount of different British immigrants, and maybe 5-10% German. The funny thing is that my commercial tests seem to fit this, but none of the admixture calculators of best fit models have any belief that I could have ancestors from the British isles. Is it normal to have so much Scandinavian with british isles ancestry? I thought they were mostly celtic even in England. Is this one of those skewed calculator things isn't it, where it tries to fit in scandinavian with south euro instead of a european middle ground of more northwest euro?

    My GEDmatch kit: QK2517788

    G25 coords:
    Milton_scaled,0.122929,0.138112,0.061471,0.03553,0 .043393,0.015618,0.001175,0.010846,0.005318,0.0105 7,-0.007795,-0.002698,-0.005054,-0.007019,0.011672,0.008088,-0.000913,-0.00038,0.008673,-0.002626,0.006988,0.002597,0.003821,0.014098,0.003 233

    Milton,0.0108,0.0136,0.0163,0.011,0.0141,0.0056,0. 0005,0.0047,0.0026,0.0058,-0.0048,-0.0018,-0.0034,-0.0051,0.0086,0.0061,-0.0007,-0.0003,0.0069,-0.0021,0.0056,0.0021,0.0031,0.0117,0.0027


    k15 GEDmatch
    66% Swedish + 34% Spanish_Cantabria @ 1.63

    K13 updated
    Target: Milton
    Distance: 0.6660% / 0.66599093
    58.8 Norwegian
    21.9 Swiss_Italian
    11.8 French_Basque
    3.3 Latvian
    1.5 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon
    1.1 Southwest_French
    1.1 Yoruban
    0.3 Dai
    0.2 Karitiana



    yourDNAportal results, typical of what I've seen on other calculators:

    Third Oracle Run

    Viking_Norse_Faroes : 20%
    Celtic_Briton : 10%
    Celtic_Hallstatt : 10%
    Gaul_Belgae : 10%
    Gaul_Ligurian_Cisalpina : 10%
    Germanic_Jutes-Frisian : 10%
    Vascones_Iberia_Atlantic : 10%
    Viking_Pomeranian : 10%
    Viking_Sigtuna : 10%


    Fourth Oracle Run
    Gaul_Belgae : 50%
    Germanic_Baiuvari-Thuringi : 50%

  2. The Following User Says Thank You to Milton1997 For This Useful Post:

     Finn (07-31-2021)

  3. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Milton1997 View Post
    On pretty much every single population fit, I get somewhere between 55 and 65 percent Scandinavian. My paper trail puts me at roughly 65% English, mostly southeast, then some varying amount of different British immigrants, and maybe 5-10% German. The funny thing is that my commercial tests seem to fit this, but none of the admixture calculators of best fit models have any belief that I could have ancestors from the British isles. Is it normal to have so much Scandinavian with british isles ancestry? I thought they were mostly celtic even in England. Is this one of those skewed calculator things isn't it, where it tries to fit in scandinavian with south euro instead of a european middle ground of more northwest euro?

    My GEDmatch kit: QK2517788

    G25 coords:
    Milton_scaled,0.122929,0.138112,0.061471,0.03553,0 .043393,0.015618,0.001175,0.010846,0.005318,0.0105 7,-0.007795,-0.002698,-0.005054,-0.007019,0.011672,0.008088,-0.000913,-0.00038,0.008673,-0.002626,0.006988,0.002597,0.003821,0.014098,0.003 233

    Milton,0.0108,0.0136,0.0163,0.011,0.0141,0.0056,0. 0005,0.0047,0.0026,0.0058,-0.0048,-0.0018,-0.0034,-0.0051,0.0086,0.0061,-0.0007,-0.0003,0.0069,-0.0021,0.0056,0.0021,0.0031,0.0117,0.0027


    k15 GEDmatch
    66% Swedish + 34% Spanish_Cantabria @ 1.63

    K13 updated
    Target: Milton
    Distance: 0.6660% / 0.66599093
    58.8 Norwegian
    21.9 Swiss_Italian
    11.8 French_Basque
    3.3 Latvian
    1.5 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon
    1.1 Southwest_French
    1.1 Yoruban
    0.3 Dai
    0.2 Karitiana



    yourDNAportal results, typical of what I've seen on other calculators:

    Third Oracle Run

    Viking_Norse_Faroes : 20%
    Celtic_Briton : 10%
    Celtic_Hallstatt : 10%
    Gaul_Belgae : 10%
    Gaul_Ligurian_Cisalpina : 10%
    Germanic_Jutes-Frisian : 10%
    Vascones_Iberia_Atlantic : 10%
    Viking_Pomeranian : 10%
    Viking_Sigtuna : 10%


    Fourth Oracle Run
    Gaul_Belgae : 50%
    Germanic_Baiuvari-Thuringi : 50%
    If you are fully British Isles the high Scandinavian could also be trying to level out the Spanish. Getting Scandinavian populations on Gedmatch and G25 is quite common for British Isles populations. For example I'm just Irish with no other known ancestry but on Gedmatch on G25 I get a good chunk of Scandinavian so yes I would say it is normal.

  4. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jessie View Post
    If you are fully British Isles the high Scandinavian could also be trying to level out the Spanish. Getting Scandinavian populations on Gedmatch and G25 is quite common for British Isles populations. For example I'm just Irish with no other known ancestry but on Gedmatch on G25 I get a good chunk of Scandinavian so yes I would say it is normal.
    Huh, I guess that's interesting to know. So not unprecedented, but also not super useful. I have wondered if the small amount of german is dragging the germanic english parts away from britain with it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Milton1997 View Post
    Huh, I guess that's interesting to know. So not unprecedented, but also not super useful. I have wondered if the small amount of german is dragging the germanic english parts away from britain with it.
    I can support Jessie's view. It's the "big NW European overlap".

    I'm as North Dutch as Jessie is Irish.


    Your DNA
    *Pangea

    3th
    Sweden : 37.5%
    Orkney : 25%
    England : 12.5%
    Ireland : 12.5%
    Norway : 12.5%

    4th
    England : 50%
    Norway : 50%


    * Eurasia

    3th
    English_Cumbria : 25%
    Ireland : 25%
    Norway : 25%
    English_Yorkshire : 12.5%
    Finland : 12.5%

    4th
    Friesland : 50%
    Jutland : 50%

    Half joking: we are all "muted Bell Beakers"

  6. The Following User Says Thank You to Finn For This Useful Post:

     Jessie (07-31-2021)

  7. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Milton1997 View Post
    Huh, I guess that's interesting to know. So not unprecedented, but also not super useful. I have wondered if the small amount of german is dragging the germanic english parts away from britain with it.
    I doubt it. My ancestry is mid-west Ireland and North Munster and this is what I get on G25.

    Target: Jessie_scaled
    Distance: 1.6901% / 0.01690068
    53.8 Irish
    38.2 Icelandic
    7.0 Swedish
    0.6 Lak
    0.4 Basque_Spanish

    Using the Gedmatch version of K13 this is my result.

    Admix Results (sorted):

    # Population Percent
    1 North_Atlantic 51.79
    2 Baltic 25.50
    3 West_Med 10.04
    4 West_Asian 7.39
    5 East_Med 1.64
    6 Red_Sea 1.40
    7 Amerindian 1.14


    Finished reading population data. 204 populations found.
    13 components mode.

    --------------------------------

    Least-squares method.

    Using 1 population approximation:
    1 North_Dutch @ 3.154020
    2 Irish @ 3.345129
    3 Norwegian @ 3.812991
    4 West_Scottish @ 4.097712
    5 Danish @ 4.117770
    6 Orcadian @ 4.137622
    7 North_German @ 5.934480
    8 Southeast_English @ 6.821008
    9 Southwest_English @ 6.871242
    10 Swedish @ 7.048794
    11 South_Dutch @ 11.471937
    12 West_German @ 12.510394
    13 North_Swedish @ 14.226061
    14 Austrian @ 17.256868
    15 East_German @ 17.369665
    16 French @ 17.988449
    17 Hungarian @ 22.274702
    18 Southwest_Finnish @ 23.591816
    19 Spanish_Cataluna @ 26.240316
    20 Southwest_French @ 27.212019

    Using 2 populations approximation:
    1 50% Irish +50% Norwegian @ 2.313866


    Using 3 populations approximation:
    1 50% Irish +25% Norwegian +25% Norwegian @ 2.313866


    Using 4 populations approximation:
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++++++++
    1 Irish + Irish + Norwegian + Norwegian @ 2.313866
    2 Irish + Norwegian + Norwegian + West_Scottish @ 2.350945
    3 Irish + Irish + North_Dutch + Norwegian @ 2.361536
    4 Irish + North_Dutch + Norwegian + West_Scottish @ 2.420817
    5 Irish + North_German + Norwegian + West_Scottish @ 2.458921
    6 North_German + Norwegian + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 2.463300
    7 Norwegian + Norwegian + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 2.464290
    8 Danish + Irish + Irish + Norwegian @ 2.502304
    9 Irish + Irish + North_German + Norwegian @ 2.505572
    10 Irish + Irish + Irish + Norwegian @ 2.526196
    11 North_Dutch + Norwegian + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 2.532473
    12 Irish + Irish + Irish + Swedish @ 2.536979
    13 Danish + Irish + Norwegian + West_Scottish @ 2.551383
    14 Irish + North_Dutch + North_Dutch + Norwegian @ 2.551535
    15 North_Dutch + North_Dutch + Norwegian + West_Scottish @ 2.555049
    16 Irish + Irish + Swedish + West_Scottish @ 2.571008
    17 North_Dutch + Norwegian + Norwegian + West_Scottish @ 2.577441
    18 Irish + North_Dutch + Norwegian + Norwegian @ 2.593716
    19 Irish + North_Dutch + Swedish + West_Scottish @ 2.626417
    20 Irish + Norwegian + Norwegian + Orcadian @ 2.632035

    With the Updated populations this is my result.

    Target: Jessie
    Distance: 1.9009% / 1.90091955
    69.6 Icelandic
    19.6 West_Scottish
    9.3 Irish_Ulster
    1.3 Dargin
    0.2 Karitiana

    Distance to: Jessie
    2.37583669 Icelandic
    3.03324908 Scottish_Gaidhealtachd
    3.90000000 Irish_Connacht
    3.92126255 Scottish
    3.97353747 Dutch_North
    3.99221743 Scottish_Southwest
    4.02823783 West_Scottish
    4.04991358 Norwegian
    4.11541006 Irish
    4.25025882 Irish_Munster
    4.25540832 Scottish_Northeast
    4.25605451 Orcadian
    4.35045975 Scottish_East
    4.41269759 Irish_Leinster
    4.50302121 Scottish_North_Highlands
    4.52268725 Irish_Ulster
    4.67891013 Denmark
    4.67923071 Dutch_Central
    4.86428823 Norway_South_Central
    4.90855376 English_North
    5.16241223 Welsh
    5.19384251 Dutch
    5.25249465 Sweden_Götaland
    5.75115641 German_Northwest
    5.81993127 English

    So I don't think it can be correlated to the Germanic parts of England. I think it is because of the populations in Northwestern Europe are close genetic wise and this could be because of Bronze Age similarity. Also you have to factor in that Iceland has a lot of Irish/Scottish input and places like Norway probably do have some Insular Celtic genetics. The calculators are just showing you populations that are close genetically and not really ancestry.

  8. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    I can support Jessie's view. It's the "big NW European overlap".

    I'm as North Dutch as Jessie is Irish.


    Your DNA
    *Pangea

    3th
    Sweden : 37.5%
    Orkney : 25%
    England : 12.5%
    Ireland : 12.5%
    Norway : 12.5%

    4th
    England : 50%
    Norway : 50%


    * Eurasia

    3th
    English_Cumbria : 25%
    Ireland : 25%
    Norway : 25%
    English_Yorkshire : 12.5%
    Finland : 12.5%

    4th
    Friesland : 50%
    Jutland : 50%

    Half joking: we are all "muted Bell Beakers"
    I agree. We have cross posted but we have a similar explanation. On Pangea I come out as half Norwegian also.

  9. The Following User Says Thank You to Jessie For This Useful Post:

     Finn (07-31-2021)

  10. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jessie View Post
    I doubt it. My ancestry is mid-west Ireland and North Munster and this is what I get on G25.

    Target: Jessie_scaled
    Distance: 1.6901% / 0.01690068
    53.8 Irish
    38.2 Icelandic
    7.0 Swedish
    0.6 Lak
    0.4 Basque_Spanish

    Using the Gedmatch version of K13 this is my result.

    Admix Results (sorted):

    # Population Percent
    1 North_Atlantic 51.79
    2 Baltic 25.50
    3 West_Med 10.04
    4 West_Asian 7.39
    5 East_Med 1.64
    6 Red_Sea 1.40
    7 Amerindian 1.14


    Finished reading population data. 204 populations found.
    13 components mode.

    --------------------------------

    Least-squares method.

    Using 1 population approximation:
    1 North_Dutch @ 3.154020
    2 Irish @ 3.345129
    3 Norwegian @ 3.812991
    4 West_Scottish @ 4.097712
    5 Danish @ 4.117770
    6 Orcadian @ 4.137622
    7 North_German @ 5.934480
    8 Southeast_English @ 6.821008
    9 Southwest_English @ 6.871242
    10 Swedish @ 7.048794
    11 South_Dutch @ 11.471937
    12 West_German @ 12.510394
    13 North_Swedish @ 14.226061
    14 Austrian @ 17.256868
    15 East_German @ 17.369665
    16 French @ 17.988449
    17 Hungarian @ 22.274702
    18 Southwest_Finnish @ 23.591816
    19 Spanish_Cataluna @ 26.240316
    20 Southwest_French @ 27.212019

    Using 2 populations approximation:
    1 50% Irish +50% Norwegian @ 2.313866


    Using 3 populations approximation:
    1 50% Irish +25% Norwegian +25% Norwegian @ 2.313866


    Using 4 populations approximation:
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++++++++
    1 Irish + Irish + Norwegian + Norwegian @ 2.313866
    2 Irish + Norwegian + Norwegian + West_Scottish @ 2.350945
    3 Irish + Irish + North_Dutch + Norwegian @ 2.361536
    4 Irish + North_Dutch + Norwegian + West_Scottish @ 2.420817
    5 Irish + North_German + Norwegian + West_Scottish @ 2.458921
    6 North_German + Norwegian + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 2.463300
    7 Norwegian + Norwegian + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 2.464290
    8 Danish + Irish + Irish + Norwegian @ 2.502304
    9 Irish + Irish + North_German + Norwegian @ 2.505572
    10 Irish + Irish + Irish + Norwegian @ 2.526196
    11 North_Dutch + Norwegian + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 2.532473
    12 Irish + Irish + Irish + Swedish @ 2.536979
    13 Danish + Irish + Norwegian + West_Scottish @ 2.551383
    14 Irish + North_Dutch + North_Dutch + Norwegian @ 2.551535
    15 North_Dutch + North_Dutch + Norwegian + West_Scottish @ 2.555049
    16 Irish + Irish + Swedish + West_Scottish @ 2.571008
    17 North_Dutch + Norwegian + Norwegian + West_Scottish @ 2.577441
    18 Irish + North_Dutch + Norwegian + Norwegian @ 2.593716
    19 Irish + North_Dutch + Swedish + West_Scottish @ 2.626417
    20 Irish + Norwegian + Norwegian + Orcadian @ 2.632035

    With the Updated populations this is my result.

    Target: Jessie
    Distance: 1.9009% / 1.90091955
    69.6 Icelandic
    19.6 West_Scottish
    9.3 Irish_Ulster
    1.3 Dargin
    0.2 Karitiana

    Distance to: Jessie
    2.37583669 Icelandic
    3.03324908 Scottish_Gaidhealtachd
    3.90000000 Irish_Connacht
    3.92126255 Scottish
    3.97353747 Dutch_North
    3.99221743 Scottish_Southwest
    4.02823783 West_Scottish
    4.04991358 Norwegian
    4.11541006 Irish
    4.25025882 Irish_Munster
    4.25540832 Scottish_Northeast
    4.25605451 Orcadian
    4.35045975 Scottish_East
    4.41269759 Irish_Leinster
    4.50302121 Scottish_North_Highlands
    4.52268725 Irish_Ulster
    4.67891013 Denmark
    4.67923071 Dutch_Central
    4.86428823 Norway_South_Central
    4.90855376 English_North
    5.16241223 Welsh
    5.19384251 Dutch
    5.25249465 Sweden_Götaland
    5.75115641 German_Northwest
    5.81993127 English

    So I don't think it can be correlated to the Germanic parts of England. I think it is because of the populations in Northwestern Europe are close genetic wise and this could be because of Bronze Age similarity. Also you have to factor in that Iceland has a lot of Irish/Scottish input and places like Norway probably do have some Insular Celtic genetics. The calculators are just showing you populations that are close genetically and not really ancestry.
    I did have a thought. Because of my family remaining in my state I use the population figures for my state when determining the dead ends of my paper trail (90% British, higher in the areas they concentrated in and 70% English overall). However, let's assume my "old-stock" makeup was just average colonial (85% British), plus 6% german and 6% Irish. This would put me right at 81% British isles instead of 90% as I had assumed based on my states figures. Knowing that most of my states British population was from southeast England, it's entirely possible that my colonial british was 60/40 ratio Celtic/Germanic (although much of that "germanic" I suspect is from regions far outside germanic territory, a lot of so-called german migrants to the colonies could have been from anywhere in the HRE). This would put me at 48.5% Celtic, and the other 51.625% being germanic and other european, most likely a wide mixture of modern populations that are in or bordering the german states. This could account for my modern yourDNAportal results:

    Third Orcale Run
    English Yorkshire 50
    Aquitaine 12.5
    Dutch 12.5
    Norway 12.5
    South-Slav 12.5

    If it's trying to balance the southeast English signature by combing Yorkshire England and Norway/Dutch/French, that could make sense right?

  11. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Milton1997 View Post
    I did have a thought. Because of my family remaining in my state I use the population figures for my state when determining the dead ends of my paper trail (90% British, higher in the areas they concentrated in and 70% English overall). However, let's assume my "old-stock" makeup was just average colonial (85% British), plus 6% german and 6% Irish. This would put me right at 81% British isles instead of 90% as I had assumed based on my states figures. Knowing that most of my states British population was from southeast England, it's entirely possible that my colonial british was 60/40 ratio Celtic/Germanic (although much of that "germanic" I suspect is from regions far outside germanic territory, a lot of so-called german migrants to the colonies could have been from anywhere in the HRE). This would put me at 48.5% Celtic, and the other 51.625% being germanic and other european, most likely a wide mixture of modern populations that are in or bordering the german states. This could account for my modern yourDNAportal results:

    Third Orcale Run
    English Yorkshire 50
    Aquitaine 12.5
    Dutch 12.5
    Norway 12.5
    South-Slav 12.5

    If it's trying to balance the southeast English signature by combing Yorkshire England and Norway/Dutch/French, that could make sense right?
    When Irish, like Jessie are "Celtic" and North Dutch like me are "Germanic" I guess this makes your sum 48.5% Celtic, and the other 51.625% being germanic quite difficult.....

  12. #9
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    How much should scaled results be taken seriously?

  13. #10
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    My dad who is mostly Southeastern English with 1 North Dutch great grandparent his K13 updated is very Scandinavian.

    Target: JFWDad
    Distance: 1.6197% / 1.61973311
    75.1 Norwegian
    14.5 French_Basque
    5.5 Lower_Silesia
    3.7 Italian_Aosta_Valley
    1.2 Georgian_imereti
    Ethnogene: 51.4% NW European, 21.6% W European, 10.1% Southeastern African, 9.5% Southeast Asian, 4.4% South Asian, 2% Scandinavian, 1% East African
    Papertrail @ 2xggrandparents: 37.5% London, 25% Dorset, 25% Mauritius, 6.25% Netherlands, 6.25% Hampshire

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