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Thread: Are Lebanese Christians really different from the Muslims genetically?

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    Are Lebanese Christians really different from the Muslims genetically?

    Is there really a large genetic difference between the Lebanese Muslims and Christians. If people say the Lebanese Muslims are more Arabian influenced well even the Christians have some Arabian background in them. Of course of Lebanese Muslims they are excluding the Druze but referring to the Sunni and Shia Lebanese. I think the Shia Lebanese will be Iranian shifted. Though I doubt the Sunnis and Christians will differ that much, since I know there has been cross conversions all the time from Sunni to Christian and Christian to Sunni. I would like to see a genetic data on this.

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    Actually, we see the opposite... That is to say the Lebanese Christians seem more Arab-drifted than their muslim and Druze counterpart:

    מכורותיך ומולדותיך מארץ הכנעני אביך האמורי ואמך חתית
    יחזקאל פרק טז ג-


    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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    Lebanese Christians are more similar to some Arabs, specifically those from the Arabian Peninsula, because they carry lower levels of ANE (MA1-related) and South Asian admixture. In other words, they seem to be genetically more Sardinian-like, and closer to the native populations of the Near East of the Neolithic period.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Generalissimo View Post
    Lebanese Christians are more similar to some Arabs, specifically those from the Arabian Peninsula, because they carry lower levels of ANE (MA1-related) and South Asian admixture. In other words, they seem to be genetically more Sardinian-like, and closer to the native populations of the Near East of the Neolithic period.
    I agree with the bolded part.
    Other elements suggest this, such as the placement of North African populations (who cline slightly towards Sardinians)... This is probably due to the more Sardinian-like admixture of their Near Eastern ancestors (who probably joined the Pre-Proto-Berbers when they introduced pastoralism to Africa).

    This is also why I think pre-exilic Judeans might've clustered closer to Cypriots than modern-day Palestinians.

    In other words, everything suggests a similar course of events if we compare this situation to what happened in Europe during the Mesolithic throughout the Chalcolithic era (and probably the Iron age).
    That is to say that the Near East was a very different place a couple of thousand years ago.

    I think the ANE component, though, is quite ancient in the Near East (it could have come in many different ways).
    Last edited by Agamemnon; 04-23-2014 at 01:32 AM.
    מכורותיך ומולדותיך מארץ הכנעני אביך האמורי ואמך חתית
    יחזקאל פרק טז ג-


    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    I think the ANE component, though, is quite ancient in the Near East (it could have come in many different ways).
    It depends on what you mean by ancient. There are stark differences in the levels of ANE between near neighbors in the Near East. In fact, the Bedouin sample from the HGDP can be split into two groups: one with 0% ANE, and another with around 8%. This is comparable to the situation in southwestern Europe (where groups like Sardinians and Basques can be fitted as 0% ANE, while their near neighbors as over 10%), and is inconsistent with a prehistoric presence of this component in most of the region.

    The Caucasus is a different story, but this area was probably much less Near Eastern-like genetically until the Bronze Age, when there were large-scale migrations from Mesopotamia as far north as southern Russia.

    I'd say most of the ANE present in the Near East today is the result of migrations from the steppe and the Caucasus from the Copper Age onwards, and also local in-situ expansions during historic times, like the Muslim expansion, which dominated the region, but failed to have much of an impact on some religious communities, like the more isolated Christian and Jewish groups.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    Actually, we see the opposite... That is to say the Lebanese Christians seem more Arab-drifted than their muslim and Druze counterpart:

    Where did you obtain this graph from?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZephyrousMandaru View Post
    Where did you obtain this graph from?
    im interested as well, the proportions seem out of whack. Why use kalash as a reference group? Levantine but no north west asian reference groups? Also how can iranians have as much arab/red-sea as druze or levantine populations?
    Last edited by Arbogan; 04-24-2014 at 07:56 AM.

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    The table above is derived from Table S3 of this paper. I calculated the averages and then named the components based on where they peaked for another forum.

    It's a shame that both the Kalash and Mozabites were included, as their isolation means that they have formed their own (not especially informative) components...

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    Quote Originally Posted by mnd View Post
    The table above is derived from Table S3 of this paper. I calculated the averages and then named the components based on where they peaked for another forum.

    It's a shame that both the Kalash and Mozabites were included, as their isolation means that they have formed their own (not especially informative) components...
    It seems to get weird results. I don't know what their admixture proportions are based on. I wonder if they're using metspalu's iranians. Even then 12% would mean recent and continuous arabic gene-flow. I wonder if this is a result of lack of reference populations(inflating arabic ancestry). On other autosmal tests, such as the eurogenes 36k, which has alot more reference populations(which included saudis as a reference set for the arab K) Iranians score 0-5%. Which seems more plausible than 12%, as arabs historically as a demograph have only been significantly present in the very south of Iran on the coastal areas.

    Their claim of having found statistically significant "Levantine component" is also interesting. According to this same study it's supposedly diverged autosmally from Europeans(which Europeans?) at 15000-9100 B.C .Yet Pierre zalloua does not control for its genesis, by making parallel study with the Caucasus and fertile crescent, which have even older neolithic sites than the Levant. All they say is that the Levant K diverged 15000-9100 B.C and that this coincides with the entrance of neolithic MTDNA in europe. But there is no comparison to other important neolithic regions. I think it's an incomplete study. He could've at least used other nearby neolithic derived populations as Ks, instead of using the Kalash, who are completely irrelevant to the region the study is based on.
    Last edited by Arbogan; 04-24-2014 at 10:36 AM.

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    I too find the results of that study to be particularly incongruous with what has been demonstrated consistently by various open-source projects. Using the Armenians as an example, they have less European-specific admixture than Georgians and more Southwest Asian component values than Iranians, yet those are reversed here.

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