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Thread: Cosmopolitanism at the Roman Danubian Frontier, Slavic Migrations, and the Genomic Fo

  1. #221
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woozler View Post
    Um.. Tacitus:



    Who do you think the Venedi of Tacitus are? From the description - sorta Germanic, living between the actual Germans and the Fenni - they could only be Balts and Slavs (which, I suspect, the Germans didn't really distinguish at that time).
    Venedi or Vendae are an insignificant tribe living on the baltic sea east of the Nogat river and the baltic sea..........they where sitting between the Gottones and the Aestii tribe ..............they where involved in the amber trade getting the amber from the Aestii

    Below the venedi where the sarmatians

    The venedi became the warmians in the medieval period

    Tacitus ( a person that never left Italy and relied on 3rd hand information ) and Jordanes ( a born Goth from Pannonia ) where in error ...............


    check map below...they are only on the top right corner of the map next to the sea

    here below is the only good map of the tribes

    The peucini are modern latvians




    tacitus states
    I do not know whether to class the tribes of the Peucini, Venedi, and Fenni ...........he places all of these together..........its is odd he missed the bigger tribe of the Aestii who lived between the Venedi and the Peucini on the baltic sea

    Fenni are Finns

    The issue is Venedi and Aestii are west-baltic people ..............and the Fenni and the Peucini are east-baltic people
    All these tribes lived on the baltic sea


    Last edited by vettor; 09-20-2021 at 08:35 PM.


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  2. #222
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    Quote Originally Posted by bce View Post
    This map shows 3rd century BC to 1st AD. The Goths came later with the Wielbark and Chernyakhov, and replaced this eastern Przeworsk.

    Your map is showing the timing of those blue circles, I-III centuries. The map encompasses archeological cultures of different ages. The blue circles are the early centuries AD, which corresponds to what we know of the movements of the Goths in this geographic area.

    By the way, Western Ukraine, north of the Dniester, the place of supposedly some of the most archaic Slavic hydronym in Eastern Europe, corresponds to the Lipitsa archeological culture (brown triangles on the map) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lipitsa_culture) that existed from 1st century BC to 3rd century AD and corresponds to the Costoboci Dacian tribe. Another reminder of how unreliable the very concept of "archaic hydronymy" appears to be.

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    Quote Originally Posted by vettor View Post
    Venedi or Vendae are an insignificant tribe living on the baltic sea east of the Nogat river and the baltic sea..........they where sitting between the Gottones and the Aestii tribe ..............they where involved in the amber trade getting the amber from the Aestii
    That's not what Tacitus says. He explicitly places his Venedi between the Peucini (Bastarnae) and the Fenni. You're not going to claim that the Bastarnae were living somewhere near the Baltic coast, are you?

    Tacitus ( a person that never left Italy and relied on 3rd hand information ) and Jordanes ( a born Goth from Pannonia ) where in error
    Were in error? Says who? He clearly had German sources. And I'd rather rely on Tacitus than on a map that places Sarmatia on the Baltic coast.

    The peucini are modern latvians
    Wow. Ok. You're the first person I'm aware of who thinks the Bastarnae were Latvian. Who else shares this view?

    The issue is Venedi and Aestii are west-baltic people ..............and the Fenni and the Peucini are east-baltic people
    All these tribes lived on the baltic sea
    Only to those people who think that Sarmatia reached all the way to the Baltic sea.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Woozler View Post
    That's not what Tacitus says. He explicitly places his Venedi between the Peucini (Bastarnae) and the Fenni. You're not going to claim that the Bastarnae were living somewhere near the Baltic coast, are you?



    Were in error? Says who? He clearly had German sources. And I'd rather rely on Tacitus than on a map that places Sarmatia on the Baltic coast.



    Wow. Ok. You're the first person I'm aware of who thinks the Bastarnae were Latvian. Who else shares this view?



    Only to those people who think that Sarmatia reached all the way to the Baltic sea.
    Bastarnae are Germans mixed with Celts and Sarmatians living south of the Gottones ( goths ) who where invited by king Philip of Macedonia to moved to modern Serbia .............the Bastarnae are not Peucini
    Philip V of Macedonia invites in a massive contingent of warriors from the tribe of the Bastarnae led by Clondicus. Apparently they are long-time allies of his and are needed to help him defeat the aggressive Dardanii, raiding Thraco-Illyrians

    Roman historian Livy may suggest a Celtic origin for the Bastarnae.

    Bastarnae arrived on the black sea circa 100BC ...about 20years after the Gottones/Goths arrived on the black sea

    Sarmatia was never on the baltic sea

    The term Peucini was only used by Strabo in describing that Peucini as part of the Bastarnae...he states
    Strabo identifies three sub-tribes which form the Bastarnae; the Atmoni, Peucini, and Sidoni. The Peucini name at least was probably not used until after the tribe had settled around the Danube delta by the end of the first century BC, as it was coined by writers following their colonisation of the Danubian island of Peuce.
    so Tacitus Peucini are different from strabo Peucini

    The Danube delta is on the black sea Romania

    Like Tacitus venedi on the baltic sea area are different to Livy term of Venedi in Brittany France

    I never said Bastanae are latvian
    Last edited by vettor; 09-20-2021 at 08:58 PM.


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    Quote Originally Posted by vettor View Post
    Bastarnae are Germans mixed with Celts and Sarmatians living south of the Gottones ( goths ) who where invited by king Philip of Macedonia to moved to modern Serbia .............the Bastarnae are not Peucini
    Philip V of Macedonia invites in a massive contingent of warriors from the tribe of the Bastarnae led by Clondicus. Apparently they are long-time allies of his and are needed to help him defeat the aggressive Dardanii, raiding Thraco-Illyrians

    Roman historian Livy may suggest a Celtic origin for the Bastarnae.

    Bastarnae arrived on the black sea circa 100BC ...about 20years after the Gottones/Goths arrived on the black sea

    Sarmatia was never on the baltic sea

    The term Peucini was only used by Strabo in describing that Peucini as part of the Bastarnae...he states
    Strabo identifies three sub-tribes which form the Bastarnae; the Atmoni, Peucini, and Sidoni. The Peucini name at least was probably not used until after the tribe had settled around the Danube delta by the end of the first century BC, as it was coined by writers following their colonisation of the Danubian island of Peuce.
    so Tacitus Peucini are different from strabo Peucini

    The Danube delta is on the black sea Romania

    Like Tacitus venedi on the baltic sea area are different to Livy term of Venedi in Brittany France

    I never said Bastanae are latvian
    The most enigmatic ‘barbarian’ people to appear in southeastern Europe in the late Iron Age are undoubtedly the Bastarnae (Βαστάρναι / Βαστέρναι) tribes.

    While archaeological/numismatic evidence indicates that the Bastarnae tribes had reached the Danube Delta as early as the second half of the 4th c. BC, they first appear in historical sources in connection with the events of 179 BC as allies of Philip V of Macedonia in his war with Rome (Livy 40:5, 57-58), and remain a constant factor in the history of southeastern Europe for over 500 years. Due to the fact that archaeologists have failed to associate a particular archaeological culture with the Bastarnae, the ethnic origin of this people has hitherto remained shrouded in mystery, with a lack of clarity on whether they were initially of Scythian, Germanic or Celtic origin. However, as illustrated below, a chronological analysis of the ancient sources relating to the Bastarnae in general, and archaeological, numismatic and linguistic evidence from the territory of the Bastarnae Peucini tribe in particular, enables us to finally shed some light on this question.
    Celto-Scythian (Peucini Bastarnae) burials from Durankulak Island (Dobrudja), north-eastern Bulgaria (2nd c. BC)
    Later authors such as Dio Cassius (3rd c. AD – Dio LI.23.3, 24.2) and Zosimus (late 5th/early 6th c. AD – Zosimus I.34) define the Bastarnae as ‘Scythians’, and to a great extent this is true. By the late Roman period the Bastarnae tribes had been living in the region vaguely referred to as ‘Scythia’ for over half a millennium, and mixing with the local tribes (‘mixed marriages are giving them to some extent the vile appearance of the Sarmatians’ – Tac. Ger. 46). Thus, they were by this stage indeed Scythians, in the same way, for example, the Celtic Scordisci in Thrace are referred to in Roman sources as ‘Thracians’, having inhabited the region of Thrace for a number of centuries. However, as with the latter case, geographical situation by no means indicates ethnic origin.


    While sources such as Strabo (early 1st c. AD – see below), and Tacitus (circa 100 AD; Tac. Ger. 43), are often cited to support the view that the Bastarnae were of Germanic origin, in fact a closer analysis of the testimony of both these sources reveals that neither is certain about who the Bastarnae were. While Strabo informs us that the Bastarnae lived mixed with the Thracian and Celtic tribes in Thrace, both north and south of the river, he also admits, ‘I know neither the Bastarnae, nor the Sarmatae nor, in a word, any of the peoples who dwell above the Pontus’ (Strabo VII, 2:4). Tacitus states the following:
    ‘Peucini, quos quidam Bastarnas, vocunt sermon cultu, sede ac domiciliis ut Germani agunt’ (Tac. op cit.), i.e. – he informs us not that the Bastarnae were Germani, but that they were ‘similar to the Germani’.


    The other ancient authors are clear on the ethnic origin of the Bastarnae. The earliest source, Polybius (200-118 BC; XXIV 9,13) refers to them as Celtic (Galatians), while Livy (59 BC – 17 AD) tells us that they had the same customs and spoke the same language as the Celtic Scordisci, and also mentions close military and political ties between the Bastarnae and Scordisci (Livy 40:57). Plutarch (46 – 120 AD; Aem. 9.6) refers to them as ‘Gauls on the Danube who are called Bastarnae’.


    Bastarnae kingdoms were established in the Dobruja area. At the beginning of the 1st c. AD Strabo (VII, 3:2) mentions that the ethnic make-up of this area consisted of a complex mix of Thracians, Scythians, Celts and Bastarnae:
    “the Bastarnae tribes are mingled with the Thracians, more indeed with those beyond the Ister (Danube), but also with those this side. And mingled with them are also the Celtic tribes…”.


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    Peuce was an island in the Danube delta. It is a common and not disputed knowledge.
    Bastarni were sometimes called Peucini because they become inhabitants of that island.
    Last edited by ph2ter; 09-20-2021 at 10:37 PM.
     
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woozler View Post
    The Baltic coast east of the Vistula (i.e. the later Prussia) was Baltic, not Slavic, in Antiquity, and I think this is what the mentions of the Venedi east of the Vistula meant - the Balts, future Prussians.

    SE Poland east of the Vistula was, I think, part of Zarubintsy, not Przeworsk.
    The issue I have with the Veneti being Balts in Jordane's time is that he describes them as very numerous and I don't see any period of time, certainly not in the 4th century CE, where the Balts were very numerous.

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    Quote Originally Posted by leonardo View Post
    The issue I have with the Veneti being Balts in Jordane's time is that he describes them as very numerous and I don't see any period of time, certainly not in the 4th century CE, where the Balts were very numerous.
    They did occupy a sizeable territory.


    778px-East_europe_3-4cc.png

    The blue areas are presumably Baltic archeological cultures. The light brown area in the middle is the Kyiv archeological culture, the likeliest candidate for the Slavic urheimat. If the Venedi of Tacitus/his Germanic sources meant both Slavs and Balts (as I said, I suspect the Germans didn't really distinguish them back then) then they did occupy a pretty impressive chunk of Eastern Europe.

    This also suggests that modern Russians (and to a lesser extent N Poles and N Belarusians) are at least partially slavicized Balts that mixed with the Slavs coming from the south sometime in the early Middle Ages. I think the genetic record confirms this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Woozler View Post
    Kyiv archeological culture, the likeliest candidate for the Slavic urheimat.
    The problem with Kiev is I don't see a way in which we can explain S17250, M458 and AV2 autosomals with it.

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    Woozler, you reverse the problem. Toponymy is always the most important thing to establish the place of ethnogenesis. Archeology and written sources are of secondary importance here. Material culture does not characterize ethnos, and writers could name different ethnoses differently. On the other hand, a given ethnolinguistic group was most likely formed in those areas in where it earliest named places in its language.

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