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Thread: Is Basal Eurasian real or an fstats artifact?

  1. #21
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    But we need more ancient DNA from the Near East, pre-Natufian and from Arabia, especially Yemen and of course Egypt and Sinai too.
    There was a population in early Sumer that the physical anthropologists of old dubbed "Australoid" or "Eurafrican", whatever that was, before craniometry went out of fashion. I don't know how close they were to the Natufians craniometrically (or genetically), but there definitely was a population that looked quite different from the later populations of Mesopotamia. "Australoid" is also a desciption that might have fit the AASI's. We really need aDNA from Iraq.

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    In any case, it seems from a quick look at stats of the form (Chimp/Mbuti, Zlaty_Kun/Ust_Ishim; Near_east_related, Euro HGs), that with ust Ishim the stats are more positive than they are with Zlaty Kun and thus the supposed "BE" signal stronger with Ust-Ishim, but since Zlaty Kun is older and would seem to be even more basal to crown Eurasian, this could in reality indicate there's rather minor Ust-Ishim ancestry in Euro HGs, and indeed stats of the form (Chimp/Mbuti, Euro HGs; Zlaty, Ust) are positive. But still the stat climbs a bit with Anatolia_N, PPNB, Natufians and Iberomaurusians especially, though less.

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    How to explain the 8.2% of haplogroup Y B in Qeshm in the Iranian Persian Gulf. Slaves from haplogroup B followed up with only 1.7% of haplogroup Y E? While in the interior of Iran haplogroup E reaches 25% and is not followed up with haplogroup B? Maybe it's a relic of the Basal Eurasians? In Qeshm they only used haplogroup B slaves and in the rest of the country they only used haplogroup E slaves?

    https://www.researchgate.net/figure/...fig1_229427983
    Last edited by jose luis; 09-13-2021 at 07:21 PM. Reason: minor changes

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    Quote Originally Posted by jose luis View Post
    How to explain the 8.2% of haplogroup Y B in Qeshm in the Iranian Persian Gulf. Slaves from haplogroup B followed up with only 1.7% of haplogroup Y E? While in the interior of Iran haplogroup E reaches 25% and is not followed up with haplogroup B? Maybe it's a relic of the Basal Eurasians? In Qeshm they only used haplogroup B slaves and in the rest of the country they only used haplogroup E slaves?

    https://www.researchgate.net/figure/...fig1_229427983
    This also depends on the age and diversity of B there. Are there some high resolution samples from these people on YFULL or FTDNA?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    The Shum Laka paper is the only really relevant on the matter for Africa itself and it shows that haplogroup E was not there yet very recently, but spread with ANA to Subsaharan Africa. YDNA E and mtDNA L3 spread with ANA into Subsaharan Africa fairly recently.
    The other question is, which paternal lineages represent more recent Basal Eurasian, I'd say it could be E1b1b primarily. But we need more ancient DNA from the Near East, pre-Natufian and from Arabia, especially Yemen and of course Egypt and Sinai too.

    Iberomaurusians are too late and just a mixed population of West-Basal Eurasian with ANA. How and where that came up is open to debate. Like suggested above, I think multiple forth and back migrations between Egypt-Sinai-Levante-Arabia are possible and would further complicate the picture. However, much of Africa, practically all of Subsaharan Africa, got ANA and E/L3 ancestry just fairly recently, that's for sure.
    In addition to Shum Laka, there's also those ancient hunter-gatherers from Malawi that were entirely B and L0. Wouldn't be surprised if E and L3 were totally absent in SSA outside of Ethiopia/Sudan until the Holocene.

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  9. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by TuaMan View Post
    In addition to Shum Laka, there's also those ancient hunter-gatherers from Malawi that were entirely B and L0. Wouldn't be surprised if E and L3 were totally absent in SSA outside of Ethiopia/Sudan until the Holocene.
    In most of Subsaharan Africa, haplogroup E and L3 seems to have come extremely late, with Niger-Kordofanian and especially Bantu-tribes. In many instances, it was a huge leap from Basal African, in some regions even archaic Homo (Iwo Eleru = Basal African or archaic? I tend to the latter) foragers to metal tools and weapons using agro-pastoralists with the full package coming in. We see how they gathered and developed archaeologically in West Africa, to radiate out in a series of massive replacement expansions. So Holocene might be even too early for most of Africa, Eastern Africa included. Most of the modern Subsaharan African populations are very young and not for long in place. I'd say the bulk of ANA E+L3 ancestors lived in the humid Sahara before being pushed by both West Eurasian movements like IBM and cattle pastoralists, as well as climatic deterioration, southward. They didn't penetrate much of the tropical African terrain and the tropical forests in particular. By having metal tools and the full package, things got much easier.
    The main barrier which made the progress slow on the one hand and later protected the Niger-Kordofanians from later West Eurasian incursions on a big scale was the Malaria barrier. This is why the mixed ANA-Basal African agro-pastoralists might have been more successful, because they acquired helpful immunological responses via gene flow from local foragers. People without that adaptation had always big troubles crossing the tropical-Malaria barrier and would have needed a prolonged phase of painful adaptation with heavy demographical losses without admixture with the locals. Subsaharan modern African genetic profile distribution is historically nearly identical with the presence of endemic Malaria:

    https://www.researchgate.net/figure/..._fig1_50363624

    I don't think that the earliest ANA agro-pastoralists were already adapted to that tropical sphere and Malaria. But that needs to be checked once the ancient DNA comes in. In any case its one of the major reasons for the very late, but then truly quick and massive expansion of agro-pastoralists in Subsaharan Africa. Once the barrier was taken, they could expand unchecked with the local foragers being no match for the demographic steamroller.
    Its fairly unlikely that E and L3 were at home in the heavily affected Malaria zone at all.
    Last edited by Riverman; 09-13-2021 at 08:56 PM.

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  11. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nganasankhan View Post
    I thought that the f2 distances between African populations were surprisingly small relative to Eurasian populations. Maybe I did something wrong, but based on f2 distances that I calculated between populations in 1240K+HO, even the distance of Yoruba to Herero is around the same as the distance of French to Russian_Arkhangelsk_Leshukonsky. And the distance of Yoruba to Khomani is around the same as the distance of French to Ket.
    Interesting, have you ever tried replicating this with the full 1240k panel data?

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    Perhaps use Morocco_LN?

  13. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    I think the splits go like this:
    1. Archaic <-> Basal African
    2. Basal African (yDNA A, B primarily) <-> Neo-African (rest)
    3. Ancient North African <-> Eurasian
    4. Basal Eurasian <-> Crown Eurasian

    1 + 2 happened in Africa almost for sure, but 3 + 4 could have happened in North East Africa-Sinai-Levante-Arabia-Mesopotamia, with possible forth and back migrations. The Shum Laka paper is the only really relevant on the matter for Africa itself and it shows that haplogroup E was not there yet very recently, but spread with ANA to Subsaharan Africa. YDNA E and mtDNA L3 spread with ANA into Subsaharan Africa fairly recently.
    The other question is, which paternal lineages represent more recent Basal Eurasian, I'd say it could be E1b1b primarily. But we need more ancient DNA from the Near East, pre-Natufian and from Arabia, especially Yemen and of course Egypt and Sinai too.

    Iberomaurusians are too late and just a mixed population of West-Basal Eurasian with ANA. How and where that came up is open to debate. Like suggested above, I think multiple forth and back migrations between Egypt-Sinai-Levante-Arabia are possible and would further complicate the picture. However, much of Africa, practically all of Subsaharan Africa, got ANA and E/L3 ancestry just fairly recently, that's for sure.
    I don't know how you can rule out Iberomaurusian admixture in the Natufians. The Iberomaurusians are very drifted and have strange ENA affinities as well as a distinct West Eurasian admixture which would make it really apparent if the Natufians just shared ANA admixture when ever we tried to model them with it.
    Forgetting the genetic evidence even the material culture supports the idea that the Natufians have Iberomaurusian admixture as the Mushabian influence on their tools is a well documented phenomenon.

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  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mnemonics View Post
    I don't know how you can rule out Iberomaurusian admixture in the Natufians. The Iberomaurusians are very drifted and have strange ENA affinities as well as a distinct West Eurasian admixture which would make it really apparent if the Natufians just shared ANA admixture when ever we tried to model them with it.
    Forgetting the genetic evidence even the material culture supports the idea that the Natufians have Iberomaurusian admixture as the Mushabian influence on their tools is a well documented phenomenon.
    You are right, it can't be ruled out or proven at this point without further evidence. I think that the Mushabians, even if they were that influential and coming from Africa, would be not IBM but rather a close relative or the ultimate source of both IBM and North African admixture in Natufians. Its probably quite complicated and its just my current opinion. Let's see what comes up in the future, hopefully they sample more from the region.

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