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Thread: Who were the Pelasgians?

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    Who were the Pelasgians?

    And did they speak an ANF - derived language?

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    Quote Originally Posted by illyroid View Post
    And did they speak an ANF - derived language?
    Ancient Greeks differentiated between Eteocretans and Pelasgians. By genomic profile, the former likely comes from an autochthonous Anatolian population, while Pelasgians were the CHG/IranN shifted populations, most prominent from Chalcolithic to Bronze Age.

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    They are quite obscure. Some of the ancient Greek authors lump them with the Thracians (IE), while early modern historians have developed the idea that the Pelasgians were pre-IE population predating the Thracian invasion based on the information that the Pelasgians inhabited Greece before the Greeks. If they lived in Greece prior to 1600 B.C. then they were definitely pre-IE. However, I think they were an IE-speaking population with a strong pre-IE substrate. The pre-IE population in the Balkans existed of course, but is it identical with the historical Pelasgians is another question. Perhaps there is no existing ethnonym for that pre-IE population. In antiquity, the Pelasgians ended up assimilated by the Greeks. Some lived in Western Anatolia together with even more obscure tribes like the Lelegi.

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    I think the Pelasgi were pre-Hellenic inhabitants of the Peloponness and the Islands and the Mycenaean culture is the most probable archaeological culture to be associated with them. A greco-roman historian Strabo gives a very expanded description of the Pelasgian legacy in Greece:
    As for the Pelasgi, almost all agree, in the first place, that some ancient tribe of that name spread throughout the whole of Greece, and particularly among the Aeolians of Thessaly.
    Again, Ephorus says that he is of the opinion that, since they were originally Arcadians, they chose a military life, and that, in converting many peoples to the same mode of life, they imparted their name to all, and thus acquired great glory, not only among the Greeks, but also among all other people whithersoever they had chanced​ to come.
    For example, they prove to have been colonisers of Crete, as Homer says; at any rate, Odysseus says to Penelope: "But one tongue with others is mixed; there​ dwell Achaeans, there Cretans of the old stock, proud of heart, there Cydonians, and Dorians too, of waving plumes, and goodly Pelasgians." And Thessaly is called "the Pelasgian Argos" (I mean that part of it which lies between the outlets of the Peneius River and Thermopylae as far as the mountainous country of Pindus), on account of the fact that the Pelasgi extended their rule over these regions.
    Further, the Dodonaean Zeus is by the poet himself named "Pelasgian": "O Lord Zeus, Dodonaean, Pelasgian." And many have called also the tribes of Epirus "Pelasgian," because in their opinion the Pelasgi extended their rule even as far as that.
    And, further, because many of the heroes were called "Pelasgi" by name, the people of later times have, from those heroes, applied the name to many of the tribes; for example, they have called the island of Lesbos "Pelasgia," and Homer has called "Pelasgi" the people that were neighbours to those Cilicians who lived in the Troad: "And Hippothous led the tribes of spear-fighting Pelasgi, those Pelasgi who inhabited deep-soiled Larissa."​
    But Ephorus' authority for the statement that this race originated in Arcadia was Hesiod; for Hesiod says: "And sons were born of god-like Lycaon, who, on a time, was begotten by Pelasgus." Again, Aeschylus, in his Suppliants,​ or else his Danaan Women,​ says that the race of the Pelasgi originated in that Argos which is round about Mycenae.​
    And the Peloponnesus too, according to Ephorus, was called "Pelasgia."​ And Euripides too, in his Archelaus,​ says: "Danaus, the father of fifty daughters, on coming into Argos,​ took up his abode in the city of Inachus,​ and throughout Greece he laid down a law that all people hitherto named Pelasgians were to be called Danaans."
    And again, Anticleides says that they were the first to settle the regions round about Lemnos and Imbros, and indeed that some of these sailed away to Italy with Tyrrhenus the son of Atys.
    And the compilers​ of the histories of The Land of Atthis​ give accounts of the Pelasgi, believing that the Pelasgi were in fact at Athens too,​ although the Pelasgi were by the Attic people called "Pelargi,"​ the compilers add, because they were wanderers and, like birds, resorted to those places whither chance led them
    Lacus Curtius. Strabo's Geography. Book V. Section 2.4
    Last edited by Fried; 10-18-2021 at 10:01 PM.

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    The Pelasgians as others have already said were probably of Pre-IE G2a Balkan Neolithic stock. We have remnants of the language they probably spoke on the Island of Lemnos. The Lemnian language is most comonly connected in a Tyrsenian language family with Rhaetic and Ethruscan so essentially its the G2a Balkan Neolithic language family.

    Edit: I should say before someone corrects me the Balkan Neolithic farmers were dominated by G2a but also had: C-V20>C-V86; I2a>I-L596; H2/H-P96; T and maybe some E.
    Last edited by vasil; 10-18-2021 at 09:52 PM.
    Distance: 6.5138% / 0.06513835
    56.4 TUR_Pinarbasi_HG
    17.8 GEO_CHG
    13.4 RUS_AfontovaGora3
    7.6 LUX_Loschbour
    3.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
    1.4 MNG_Late_Med

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    Quote Originally Posted by vasil View Post
    The Pelasgians as others have already said were probably of Pre-IE G2a Balkan Neolithic stock. We have remnants of the language they probably spoke on the Island of Lemnos. The Lemnian language is most comonly connected in a Tyrsenian language family with Rhaetic and Ethruscan so essentially its the G2a Balkan Neolithic language family.

    Edit: I should say before someone corrects me the Balkan Neolithic farmers were dominated by G2a but also had: C-V20>C-V86; I2a>I-L596; H2/H-P96; T and maybe some E.

    Why dominated by G2a only? I would say J2a was even stronger among the pre-Hellenic population.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bane View Post
    Why dominated by G2a only? I would say J2a was even stronger among the pre-Hellenic population.
    J2a is suspected to have been brought by a later wave from Anatolia and the Caucasus, the one that also brought CHG and Iran_N ancestry to Greece and Italy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by peloponnesian View Post
    J2a is suspected to have been brought by a later wave from Anatolia and the Caucasus, the one that also brought CHG and Iran_N ancestry to Greece and Italy.
    Ok.
    Since this would mean such wave happened sometime after 1500 BC it probably can be associated with certain events mentioned by the history science. What would those events be?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bane View Post
    Ok.
    Since this would mean such wave happened sometime after 1500 BC it probably can be associated with certain events mentioned by the history science. What would those events be?
    These components were found in Minoans, Cycladics, Myceneans and, judging by this poster, also in the mainland during the early Bronze Age before the Mycenean arrival. So definitely a prehistoric event that happened before 2000 BC. We also can't exclude the possibility that there was constant geneflow between mainland Greece, the Aegean islands and Anatolia which could've brought Anatolian ancestry at multiple times.

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    Quote Originally Posted by peloponnesian View Post
    These components were found in Minoans, Cycladics, Myceneans and, judging by this poster, also in the mainland during the early Bronze Age before the Mycenean arrival. So definitely a prehistoric event that happened before 2000 BC. We also can't exclude the possibility that there was constant geneflow between mainland Greece, the Aegean islands and Anatolia which could've brought Anatolian ancestry at multiple times.

    To me it seems there is a missunderstanding, so maybe we can start from the beginning
    For you, what would be the point of time when Hellenic period started in Greece?
    Because I thought discussion was about pre and post Hellenic period. It is an assumption that Pelasgians are pre-Hellenic population. Your last comment implies Pelasgians are from 4000 BC or something like that which is not plausible.

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