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Thread: Faces of Three Ancient Egyptians Brought to Life Using 2,000-Year-Old DNA

  1. #281
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woozler View Post
    From Lazaridis 2018:

    "Natufians.. can.. be modeled as a mixture of Dzudzuana and additional ĎDeepí ancestry that may represent an even earlier split than the Basal Eurasians."



    89% Dzudzuana, 11% "Mbuti" (or "ANA", some Deep ancestry that is not particularly close to either Eurasians or SSA's (from Lazaridis 2016: "However, no affinity of Natufians to sub-Saharan Africans is evident in our genome-wide analysis, as present-day sub-Saharan Africans do not share more alleles with Natufians than with other ancient Eurasians").

    The best models for the Natufians usually have them as Pinarbasi + Iberomaurusian related + Mota.


    Code:
    left pops:
    Natufian
    Anatolia_Epipaleolithic
    Morocco_EN
    Mota
    
    right pops:
    South_Africa_2000BP
    Cameroon_SMA.SG
    Iberomaurusian
    DevilsGate_N
    Onge
    Russia_Afanasievo.SG
    CHG
    Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG
    Bahamas_SouthAndros_Ceramic.SG
    Dinka.DG
    Iberia_HG
    Yana_UP
    Ekven_IA.SG
    Nepal_Chokhopani_2700BP.SG
    MA1
    Kostenki14
    
      0             Natufian    6
      1 Anatolia_Epipaleolithic    1
      2           Morocco_EN    3
      3                 Mota    1
      4  South_Africa_2000BP    3
      5      Cameroon_SMA.SG    2
      6       Iberomaurusian    4
      7         DevilsGate_N    4
      8                 Onge    6
      9 Russia_Afanasievo.SG    2
     10                  CHG    2
     11 Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG    2
     12 Bahamas_SouthAndros_Ceramic.SG    4
     13             Dinka.DG    4
     14            Iberia_HG    2
     15              Yana_UP    2
     16          Ekven_IA.SG   10
     17 Nepal_Chokhopani_2700BP.SG    1
     18                  MA1    1
     19           Kostenki14    1
    jackknife block size:     0.050
    snps: 1150523  indivs: 61
    number of blocks for block jackknife: 714
    ## ncols: 1150523
    coverage:             Natufian 529354
    coverage: Anatolia_Epipaleolithic 838782
    coverage:           Morocco_EN 653097
    coverage:                 Mota 1134612
    coverage:  South_Africa_2000BP 1135087
    coverage:      Cameroon_SMA.SG 1148760
    coverage:       Iberomaurusian 1086672
    coverage:         DevilsGate_N 1134715
    coverage:                 Onge 1143388
    coverage: Russia_Afanasievo.SG 1147532
    coverage:                  CHG 1134595
    coverage: Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG 1149733
    coverage: Bahamas_SouthAndros_Ceramic.SG 1150077
    coverage:             Dinka.DG 1150410
    coverage:            Iberia_HG 1042845
    coverage:              Yana_UP 1135189
    coverage:          Ekven_IA.SG 1144810
    coverage: Nepal_Chokhopani_2700BP.SG 1147408
    coverage:                  MA1 796065
    coverage:           Kostenki14 1035815
    Effective number of blocks:   627.284
    numsnps used: 260397
    codimension 1
    f4info: 
    f4rank: 2 dof:     13 chisq:     6.363 tail:          0.931942749 dofdiff:     15 chisqdiff:    -6.363 taildiff:                    1
    B:
              scale     1.000     1.000 
    Cameroon_SMA.SG     0.084     0.111 
     Iberomaurusian     0.840     3.788 
       DevilsGate_N     0.956    -0.003 
               Onge     0.920    -0.064 
    Russia_Afanasievo.SG     1.179    -0.343 
                CHG     1.161    -0.294 
    Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG     1.305    -0.404 
    Bahamas_SouthAndros_Ceramic.SG     0.994    -0.053 
           Dinka.DG     0.148     0.229 
          Iberia_HG     1.241    -0.331 
            Yana_UP     1.055    -0.148 
        Ekven_IA.SG     1.006    -0.101 
    Nepal_Chokhopani_2700BP.SG     0.932     0.001 
                MA1     1.121    -0.184 
         Kostenki14     1.134    -0.195 
    A:
              scale    87.777   344.583 
    Anatolia_Epipaleolithic     0.199    -0.367 
         Morocco_EN    -0.400     1.672 
               Mota    -1.673    -0.264 
    
    
    full rank
    f4info: 
    f4rank: 3 dof:      0 chisq:     0.000 tail:                    1 dofdiff:     13 chisqdiff:     6.363 taildiff:          0.931942749
    B:
              scale   405.868   152.060    51.205 
    Cameroon_SMA.SG     0.071     0.033    -0.101 
     Iberomaurusian    -0.844     2.221    -0.985 
       DevilsGate_N     0.892    -0.679    -0.959 
               Onge     0.758    -0.734    -0.931 
    Russia_Afanasievo.SG     1.257    -1.079    -1.161 
                CHG     1.079    -1.058    -1.153 
    Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG     1.490    -1.195    -1.274 
    Bahamas_SouthAndros_Ceramic.SG     0.975    -0.735    -0.993 
           Dinka.DG     0.046     0.064    -0.174 
          Iberia_HG     1.272    -1.124    -1.216 
            Yana_UP     1.075    -0.846    -1.040 
        Ekven_IA.SG     0.921    -0.798    -1.006 
    Nepal_Chokhopani_2700BP.SG     0.958    -0.655    -0.929 
                MA1     1.168    -0.913    -1.101 
         Kostenki14     1.044    -0.965    -1.124 
    A:
              scale     1.732     1.732     1.732 
    Anatolia_Epipaleolithic     1.732     0.000     0.000 
         Morocco_EN     0.000     1.732     0.000 
               Mota     0.000     0.000     1.732 
    
    
    best coefficients:     0.773     0.178     0.049 
    Jackknife mean:      0.772868794     0.177545293     0.049585913 
          std. errors:     0.014     0.014     0.012 
    
    error covariance (* 1,000,000)
           201       -128        -73 
          -128        194        -67 
           -73        -67        139 
    
    
    summ: Natufian    3      0.931943     0.773     0.178     0.050        201       -128        -73        194        -67   ...
           139 
    
        fixed pat  wt  dof     chisq       tail prob
              000  0    13     6.363        0.931943     0.773     0.178     0.049 
              001  1    14    60.730     8.73402e-08     0.804     0.196     0.000 
              010  1    14   152.386     2.39359e-25     0.902     0.000     0.098 
              100  1    14  1986.777               0     0.000     0.916     0.084 
              011  2    15   232.270               0     1.000     0.000     0.000 
              101  2    15  2002.753               0     0.000     1.000     0.000 
              110  2    15  3428.511               0     0.000     0.000     1.000 
    best pat:          000         0.931943              -  -
    best pat:          001      8.73402e-08  chi(nested):    54.367 p-value for nested model:     1.66342e-13
    best pat:          011      5.47219e-41  chi(nested):   171.540 p-value for nested model:     3.41052e-39
    
    coeffs:     0.773     0.178     0.049 
    
    ## dscore:: f_4(Base, Fit, Rbase, right2)
    ## genstat:: f_4(Base, Fit, right1, right2)
    
    details: Anatolia_Epipaleolithic      Cameroon_SMA.SG     0.000175    0.498306
    details:           Morocco_EN      Cameroon_SMA.SG     0.000219    0.600969
    details:                 Mota      Cameroon_SMA.SG    -0.001963   -5.262382
    dscore:      Cameroon_SMA.SG f4:     0.000077 Z:     0.245047
    
    details: Anatolia_Epipaleolithic       Iberomaurusian    -0.002080   -4.568511
    details:           Morocco_EN       Iberomaurusian     0.014607   28.154417
    details:                 Mota       Iberomaurusian    -0.019241  -37.691888
    dscore:       Iberomaurusian f4:     0.000034 Z:     0.082443
    
    details: Anatolia_Epipaleolithic         DevilsGate_N     0.002199    4.501740
    details:           Morocco_EN         DevilsGate_N    -0.004464   -9.376233
    details:                 Mota         DevilsGate_N    -0.018731  -34.426794
    dscore:         DevilsGate_N f4:    -0.000020 Z:    -0.046959
    
    details: Anatolia_Epipaleolithic                 Onge     0.001866    4.131445
    details:           Morocco_EN                 Onge    -0.004824  -10.455849
    details:                 Mota                 Onge    -0.018187  -35.508043
    dscore:                 Onge f4:    -0.000314 Z:    -0.786458
    
    details: Anatolia_Epipaleolithic Russia_Afanasievo.SG     0.003098    6.573741
    details:           Morocco_EN Russia_Afanasievo.SG    -0.007093  -15.245943
    details:                 Mota Russia_Afanasievo.SG    -0.022681  -41.880325
    dscore: Russia_Afanasievo.SG f4:     0.000012 Z:     0.029780
    
    details: Anatolia_Epipaleolithic                  CHG     0.002658    5.500957
    details:           Morocco_EN                  CHG    -0.006958  -14.017141
    details:                 Mota                  CHG    -0.022524  -39.453752
    dscore:                  CHG f4:    -0.000296 Z:    -0.690656
    
    details: Anatolia_Epipaleolithic Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG     0.003671    7.888552
    details:           Morocco_EN Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG    -0.007860  -15.503546
    details:                 Mota Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG    -0.024882  -44.256853
    dscore: Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG f4:     0.000210 Z:     0.501654
    
    details: Anatolia_Epipaleolithic Bahamas_SouthAndros_Ceramic.SG     0.002403    5.046697
    details:           Morocco_EN Bahamas_SouthAndros_Ceramic.SG    -0.004832  -10.287821
    details:                 Mota Bahamas_SouthAndros_Ceramic.SG    -0.019396  -38.021904
    dscore: Bahamas_SouthAndros_Ceramic.SG f4:     0.000039 Z:     0.092439
    
    details: Anatolia_Epipaleolithic             Dinka.DG     0.000114    0.362156
    details:           Morocco_EN             Dinka.DG     0.000418    1.304090
    details:                 Mota             Dinka.DG    -0.003398   -9.633692
    dscore:             Dinka.DG f4:    -0.000006 Z:    -0.021250
    
    details: Anatolia_Epipaleolithic            Iberia_HG     0.003135    6.012109
    details:           Morocco_EN            Iberia_HG    -0.007394  -14.840613
    details:                 Mota            Iberia_HG    -0.023748  -43.106282
    dscore:            Iberia_HG f4:    -0.000065 Z:    -0.141680
    
    details: Anatolia_Epipaleolithic              Yana_UP     0.002649    5.646919
    details:           Morocco_EN              Yana_UP    -0.005561  -11.575815
    details:                 Mota              Yana_UP    -0.020311  -38.798694
    dscore:              Yana_UP f4:     0.000055 Z:     0.134051
    
    details: Anatolia_Epipaleolithic          Ekven_IA.SG     0.002269    5.035020
    details:           Morocco_EN          Ekven_IA.SG    -0.005248  -11.562025
    details:                 Mota          Ekven_IA.SG    -0.019650  -39.094410
    dscore:          Ekven_IA.SG f4:    -0.000151 Z:    -0.377705
    
    details: Anatolia_Epipaleolithic Nepal_Chokhopani_2700BP.SG     0.002361    4.314303
    details:           Morocco_EN Nepal_Chokhopani_2700BP.SG    -0.004311   -7.895318
    details:                 Mota Nepal_Chokhopani_2700BP.SG    -0.018151  -31.175124
    dscore: Nepal_Chokhopani_2700BP.SG f4:     0.000161 Z:     0.336236
    
    details: Anatolia_Epipaleolithic                  MA1     0.002877    5.063898
    details:           Morocco_EN                  MA1    -0.006004  -10.495920
    details:                 Mota                  MA1    -0.021506  -35.338373
    dscore:                  MA1 f4:     0.000093 Z:     0.185575
    
    details: Anatolia_Epipaleolithic           Kostenki14     0.002572    4.494011
    details:           Morocco_EN           Kostenki14    -0.006348  -11.239472
    details:                 Mota           Kostenki14    -0.021956  -36.543019
    dscore:           Kostenki14 f4:    -0.000226 Z:    -0.448947
    
    gendstat:  South_Africa_2000BP      Cameroon_SMA.SG     0.245
    gendstat:  South_Africa_2000BP       Iberomaurusian     0.082
    gendstat:  South_Africa_2000BP         DevilsGate_N    -0.047
    gendstat:  South_Africa_2000BP                 Onge    -0.786
    gendstat:  South_Africa_2000BP Russia_Afanasievo.SG     0.030
    gendstat:  South_Africa_2000BP                  CHG    -0.691
    gendstat:  South_Africa_2000BP Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG     0.502
    gendstat:  South_Africa_2000BP Bahamas_SouthAndros_Ceramic.SG     0.092
    gendstat:  South_Africa_2000BP             Dinka.DG    -0.021
    gendstat:  South_Africa_2000BP            Iberia_HG    -0.142
    gendstat:  South_Africa_2000BP              Yana_UP     0.134
    gendstat:  South_Africa_2000BP          Ekven_IA.SG    -0.378
    gendstat:  South_Africa_2000BP Nepal_Chokhopani_2700BP.SG     0.336
    gendstat:  South_Africa_2000BP                  MA1     0.186
    gendstat:  South_Africa_2000BP           Kostenki14    -0.449
    gendstat:      Cameroon_SMA.SG       Iberomaurusian    -0.106
    gendstat:      Cameroon_SMA.SG         DevilsGate_N    -0.225
    gendstat:      Cameroon_SMA.SG                 Onge    -0.975
    gendstat:      Cameroon_SMA.SG Russia_Afanasievo.SG    -0.154
    gendstat:      Cameroon_SMA.SG                  CHG    -0.867
    gendstat:      Cameroon_SMA.SG Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG     0.319
    gendstat:      Cameroon_SMA.SG Bahamas_SouthAndros_Ceramic.SG    -0.091
    gendstat:      Cameroon_SMA.SG             Dinka.DG    -0.291
    gendstat:      Cameroon_SMA.SG            Iberia_HG    -0.306
    gendstat:      Cameroon_SMA.SG              Yana_UP    -0.052
    gendstat:      Cameroon_SMA.SG          Ekven_IA.SG    -0.571
    gendstat:      Cameroon_SMA.SG Nepal_Chokhopani_2700BP.SG     0.176
    gendstat:      Cameroon_SMA.SG                  MA1     0.032
    gendstat:      Cameroon_SMA.SG           Kostenki14    -0.591
    gendstat:       Iberomaurusian         DevilsGate_N    -0.121
    gendstat:       Iberomaurusian                 Onge    -0.824
    gendstat:       Iberomaurusian Russia_Afanasievo.SG    -0.048
    gendstat:       Iberomaurusian                  CHG    -0.726
    gendstat:       Iberomaurusian Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG     0.412
    gendstat:       Iberomaurusian Bahamas_SouthAndros_Ceramic.SG     0.012
    gendstat:       Iberomaurusian             Dinka.DG    -0.113
    gendstat:       Iberomaurusian            Iberia_HG    -0.220
    gendstat:       Iberomaurusian              Yana_UP     0.049
    gendstat:       Iberomaurusian          Ekven_IA.SG    -0.440
    gendstat:       Iberomaurusian Nepal_Chokhopani_2700BP.SG     0.251
    gendstat:       Iberomaurusian                  MA1     0.114
    gendstat:       Iberomaurusian           Kostenki14    -0.503
    gendstat:         DevilsGate_N                 Onge    -0.815
    gendstat:         DevilsGate_N Russia_Afanasievo.SG     0.078
    gendstat:         DevilsGate_N                  CHG    -0.616
    gendstat:         DevilsGate_N Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG     0.532
    gendstat:         DevilsGate_N Bahamas_SouthAndros_Ceramic.SG     0.168
    gendstat:         DevilsGate_N             Dinka.DG     0.037
    gendstat:         DevilsGate_N            Iberia_HG    -0.103
    gendstat:         DevilsGate_N              Yana_UP     0.184
    gendstat:         DevilsGate_N          Ekven_IA.SG    -0.401
    gendstat:         DevilsGate_N Nepal_Chokhopani_2700BP.SG     0.441
    gendstat:         DevilsGate_N                  MA1     0.226
    gendstat:         DevilsGate_N           Kostenki14    -0.431
    gendstat:                 Onge Russia_Afanasievo.SG     0.804
    gendstat:                 Onge                  CHG     0.044
    gendstat:                 Onge Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG     1.267
    gendstat:                 Onge Bahamas_SouthAndros_Ceramic.SG     1.022
    gendstat:                 Onge             Dinka.DG     0.866
    gendstat:                 Onge            Iberia_HG     0.590
    gendstat:                 Onge              Yana_UP     0.982
    gendstat:                 Onge          Ekven_IA.SG     0.487
    gendstat:                 Onge Nepal_Chokhopani_2700BP.SG     1.125
    gendstat:                 Onge                  MA1     0.865
    gendstat:                 Onge           Kostenki14     0.190
    gendstat: Russia_Afanasievo.SG                  CHG    -0.753
    gendstat: Russia_Afanasievo.SG Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG     0.508
    gendstat: Russia_Afanasievo.SG Bahamas_SouthAndros_Ceramic.SG     0.070
    gendstat: Russia_Afanasievo.SG             Dinka.DG    -0.048
    gendstat: Russia_Afanasievo.SG            Iberia_HG    -0.189
    gendstat: Russia_Afanasievo.SG              Yana_UP     0.107
    gendstat: Russia_Afanasievo.SG          Ekven_IA.SG    -0.451
    gendstat: Russia_Afanasievo.SG Nepal_Chokhopani_2700BP.SG     0.316
    gendstat: Russia_Afanasievo.SG                  MA1     0.176
    gendstat: Russia_Afanasievo.SG           Kostenki14    -0.486
    gendstat:                  CHG Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG     1.185
    gendstat:                  CHG Bahamas_SouthAndros_Ceramic.SG     0.782
    gendstat:                  CHG             Dinka.DG     0.741
    gendstat:                  CHG            Iberia_HG     0.490
    gendstat:                  CHG              Yana_UP     0.823
    gendstat:                  CHG          Ekven_IA.SG     0.358
    gendstat:                  CHG Nepal_Chokhopani_2700BP.SG     0.914
    gendstat:                  CHG                  MA1     0.755
    gendstat:                  CHG           Kostenki14     0.136
    gendstat: Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG Bahamas_SouthAndros_Ceramic.SG    -0.399
    gendstat: Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG             Dinka.DG    -0.567
    gendstat: Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG            Iberia_HG    -0.639
    gendstat: Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG              Yana_UP    -0.357
    gendstat: Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG          Ekven_IA.SG    -0.893
    gendstat: Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG Nepal_Chokhopani_2700BP.SG    -0.098
    gendstat: Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG                  MA1    -0.240
    gendstat: Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG           Kostenki14    -0.871
    gendstat: Bahamas_SouthAndros_Ceramic.SG             Dinka.DG    -0.121
    gendstat: Bahamas_SouthAndros_Ceramic.SG            Iberia_HG    -0.244
    gendstat: Bahamas_SouthAndros_Ceramic.SG              Yana_UP     0.041
    gendstat: Bahamas_SouthAndros_Ceramic.SG          Ekven_IA.SG    -0.652
    gendstat: Bahamas_SouthAndros_Ceramic.SG Nepal_Chokhopani_2700BP.SG     0.288
    gendstat: Bahamas_SouthAndros_Ceramic.SG                  MA1     0.120
    gendstat: Bahamas_SouthAndros_Ceramic.SG           Kostenki14    -0.561
    gendstat:             Dinka.DG            Iberia_HG    -0.141
    gendstat:             Dinka.DG              Yana_UP     0.163
    gendstat:             Dinka.DG          Ekven_IA.SG    -0.410
    gendstat:             Dinka.DG Nepal_Chokhopani_2700BP.SG     0.368
    gendstat:             Dinka.DG                  MA1     0.210
    gendstat:             Dinka.DG           Kostenki14    -0.465
    gendstat:            Iberia_HG              Yana_UP     0.275
    gendstat:            Iberia_HG          Ekven_IA.SG    -0.209
    gendstat:            Iberia_HG Nepal_Chokhopani_2700BP.SG     0.443
    gendstat:            Iberia_HG                  MA1     0.319
    gendstat:            Iberia_HG           Kostenki14    -0.321
    gendstat:              Yana_UP          Ekven_IA.SG    -0.542
    gendstat:              Yana_UP Nepal_Chokhopani_2700BP.SG     0.229
    gendstat:              Yana_UP                  MA1     0.078
    gendstat:              Yana_UP           Kostenki14    -0.605
    gendstat:          Ekven_IA.SG Nepal_Chokhopani_2700BP.SG     0.751
    gendstat:          Ekven_IA.SG                  MA1     0.558
    gendstat:          Ekven_IA.SG           Kostenki14    -0.163
    gendstat: Nepal_Chokhopani_2700BP.SG                  MA1    -0.125
    gendstat: Nepal_Chokhopani_2700BP.SG           Kostenki14    -0.736
    gendstat:                  MA1           Kostenki14    -0.578

    There is some unmodeled affinty to Iran_N but the lack of extra CHG + ENA affinity makes it seem likely that the admixture is Natufian --> Iran_N rather than the other way around.

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  3. #282
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    Quote Originally Posted by egyptian_eediat View Post
    Ithink a predynastic southern Egyptian would plot somewhere between modern Horners/Bejas and ancient Levantines.

    "The D2 values of Mahalanobis showed a combined series (Naqada I/II and other non-specific Naqada period remains) to be more similar to Tigrean and Nubian groups than to those from northern late dynastic Egypt (Mukherjee et al. 1955)"
    Analysis of Naqada Predynastic crania: a brief report

    Also recall many early anthros describing Bejas as Proto Egyptians

    Seeing as the Levantine related component in Cushites was introduced from Upper Egypt/Lower Nubia this is probably the common denominator between ancient Upper Egypt and the Horn/Bejas and accounts for most of the clustering between these groups, but I would think that ancient egyptians would have more SSA than levantines, this could have come from the Western Desert as during the drying of the Sahara, Western Desert groups migrated into the nile valley which would have been inhabitated by Nabta Playa like groups among others, this could facilitate the similarities between modern South Sudanese cattle culture and Ancient Egypt, for example cattle deformation... it could also explain Nilo Saharan influence in Egyptian words pertaining to cattle, this would pull them further towards the Horn creating another layer of common ancestry being Dinka like.

    Actually Mukherjee's study is outdated :

    However, there is also one major difference; Mukherjee and associates placed their Badarian Egyptian sample within the sub-Saharan cluster, while puzzling over this unexpected affinity (Mukherjee et al., 1955: 86). Inspection of the original D2 matrix (their Table 5.6: 84) does, in reality, indicate a Badarian affiliation to North Africans, not sub-Saharan samples. It is therefore likely that an error was made in construction of their original figure when converting inter-sample distances to x- and y-coordinates. A similar plotting inaccuracy would have taken place in Figure 4 if the Badarian (BAD) sample had erroneously received a negative rather than positive x-coordinate.
    https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/oa.868

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  5. #283
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cabaon View Post
    Indeed we do :



    https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/oa.868


    Pre-Dynastic and 12th-29th Dynasty Egyptians cluster with modern Afghans and modern North Indians on the edge of a larger cluster of modern Europeans and modern West Asians (dental metric here) :



    Hanihara T and Ishida H, (2005) Metric dental variation of major human populations American Journal of Physical Anthropology, Volume 128 Issue 2, Pages 287 - 298.




    Joel D. Irish (2006). Who Were the Ancient Egyptians? Dental Affinities Among Neolithic Through Postdynastic Peoples. Am J Phys Anthropol. 2006 Apr;129(4):529-43.


    The contrast is also striking with the jebel Sahaba skulls who were described as typically "negroid". Ancient Egytians from the old kingdom to the roman era were obviously closer to west asians or north africans than any sub-saharan population.
    lol somalia is in between south africa and china, you really think this reflects the genetic reality?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cabaon View Post
    Actually Mukherjee's study is outdated :



    https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/oa.868
    link to the full study?
    also, i don't think sub saharan = horn in this case, the horn clusters with north africans cranially, sub saharan isnt being used from a geographical standpoint

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    "The Mahalanobis D2 analysis uncovered close affinities between Nubians and Egyptians. Table 3 lists the Mahalanobis D2 distance matrix. As there is no significance testing that is available to be applied to this form of Mahalanobis distances, the biodistance scores must be interpreted in relation to one another, rather than on a general scale. In some cases, the statistics reveal that the Egyptian samples were more similar to Nubian samples than to other Egyptian samples (e.g. Gizeh and Hesa/Biga) and vice versa (e.g. Badari and Kerma, Naqada and Christian)."

    Screenshot_31.png
    -Gebel Ramlah Final Neolithic Cemeteries from the Western Desert of Egypt.

    This combined with all the other data attesting to close clustering with Eritreans, Somalis and ancient Nubians with significant SSA ancestry shows its unlikely AE in its early period had single digit SSA ancestry... Im not arguing AE was mostly SSA btw, but i doubt a pre dynastic upper Egyptian is gonna sit right on top of a Levantine

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    Quote Originally Posted by egyptian_eediat View Post
    "The Mahalanobis D2 analysis uncovered close affinities between Nubians and Egyptians. Table 3 lists the Mahalanobis D2 distance matrix. As there is no significance testing that is available to be applied to this form of Mahalanobis distances, the biodistance scores must be interpreted in relation to one another, rather than on a general scale. In some cases, the statistics reveal that the Egyptian samples were more similar to Nubian samples than to other Egyptian samples (e.g. Gizeh and Hesa/Biga) and vice versa (e.g. Badari and Kerma, Naqada and Christian)."

    Screenshot_31.png
    -Gebel Ramlah Final Neolithic Cemeteries from the Western Desert of Egypt.

    This combined with all the other data attesting to close clustering with Eritreans, Somalis and ancient Nubians with significant SSA ancestry shows its unlikely AE in its early period had single digit SSA ancestry... Im not arguing AE was mostly SSA btw, but i doubt a pre dynastic upper Egyptian is gonna sit right on top of a Levantine
    Depends on what you mean by early. If you're talking about historical Egypt (Early Dynastic onward), you can expect single digits. The predynastic is anyone's guess, but I doubt the centuries before the Early Dynastic will be much different.
    Ελευθερία ή θάνατος.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mnemonics View Post
    Certain East African populations seem to have excess Anatolia_N affinity relative to the others. The Ogiek are a good example of this but I think it might be true for the Omotic speakers too.
    This could be explained by later migrations carrying excess Anatolia_N but I don't think it's that simple due to the fact that they lack the excess Iberomaurusian you would expect if it came from a Northwest African population and the West Asian you would expect if it came from a Levantine population.

    I'll try running models of the various East African populations as Dinka + South_Africa_2000BP + Anatolia_N + Iran_N using a high quality modern right pops list to see if its better at distinguishing the ratio between them.
    It's something I noticed as well on G25

    Target: Drobbah_FTDNA_scaled
    Distance: 5.6579% / 0.05657941 | ADC: 0.25x RC
    46.8 Sudanese
    32.8 Proto-Natufian_(simulated)
    8.4 ETH_4500BP
    8.2 ANA_(simulated)
    3.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N

    Target: Ogiek
    Distance: 2.1884% / 0.02188379 | ADC: 0.25x RC
    60.0 Sudanese
    19.6 ETH_4500BP
    15.6 Proto-Natufian_(simulated)
    2.8 ANA_(simulated)
    2.0 TUR_Barcin_N

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    Quote Originally Posted by Woozler View Post
    That never really applied to North Egypt, which started to be massively populated only from 6000 BCE by recent arrivals from Asia, already Levant_PPN or perhaps even Levant_ISR_C like genetically. That was fairly obvious from archeology and anthropology long before the arrival of archeogenetics.

    South Egypt was different.

    Before that 2017 mummy study, the idea that the Badarians were Nubian-like and S Egypt was a Nubian-like culture from pre-dynastic and all the way to modern times would've seemed perfectly reasonable, but the paucity of SSA ancestry in the mummies that that study covered (both at the autosomal and mtdna level) surprised a lot of people, I would imagine.

    Either the Badarians did not contibute much to the later Egyptian populations, or the Badarians were not Nubian-like. Most likely, they were of largely Natufian descent (perhaps with some extra ANA/Taforalt type ancestry).

    And, of course, speaking of archeological record, there is that pesky issue of sudden and significant Mesopotamian cultural presence in pre-dynastic Naqada, which, if other archeogenetic findings are any indication, strongly suggests a substantial movement of people, i.e. a Mesopotamian invasion.



    For example?



    Not all of those lineages were of "recent SW Asians". Some may have been present in Africa since the late Paleolithic (perhaps not just in Iberomaurusians). And aren't the African E-M78 lineages mostly downstream from the Middle Eastern ones?



    Levant PPN started around 12,000 years ago. If this is roughly the time of (Pre?)-Proto-Afro-Asiatic, then by 6000 BCE it would've likely diverged into mutually unintelligible languages, with pre-proto Semitic probably spoken in the north of the Fertile Crescent/N Mesopotamia, and something like Pre-Proto-Egyptian perhaps spoken in S Levant just before 6000 BCE.

    Pre-proto-Egyptian arrived to Egypt from S Levant shortly after 6000 BCE. Semitic arrived to S Levant, say, around 3500 BCE. Obviously, I'm just speculating.

    Alternatively (and more in line with the mainstream, I suspect), proto-Egyptian would've been the language of the Badarians (i.e. the Natufians who migrated from the Fertile Crescent to N Africa in the early neolithic). The arriving Mesopotamians would not have caused a language shift, being too few in numbers, but then the mixed Mesopotamian-Badarian population would've gradually imposed their language on N Egyptians. Speculating again.



    There were clearly multiple back-to-Africa migrations in the last 70,000 years, likely with additional out-of-Africa migrations in between.



    That paper came out before the Natufian and Kenyan Pastoralist papers came out.



    Apart from NW Africa, esp. Morocco, with significant (but not dominant) Taforalt ancestry, the rest of N Africa is of overwhelmingly Neolithic (and also Chalcolithic/Bronze Age) Middle Eastern descent, and that includes both the ancient samples and modern populations. This is a fact.
    You are saying a lot but I think you are missing the point due to unfamiliarity with archeology.. What you are saying may work as individual trees but you are missing the forest in the multidisciplinary aspect.
    Addressing a few points, i am speaking against a LATE Neolithic mass influx of migrants.

    -That LATE influx does not allow there to be Afroasiatic sharing with other African languages, our resident linguists has highlighted this info. AA would already have to BE there. OR Nilo Saharan and Niger Congo would have to be in the Levant.
    -Most V68 lineages in Africa are not Near Eastern Subclades. V68 and Z827 while related have a different regional history. One (V68) seems more aligned with the early infiltration into or splitting from the ancestors of those that would be come Nilo Saharan Speakers. And this happened too early for it to be tied to Late Neolithic mass Levantines. Keep in mind this is one of the Dominant lineages in Egypt, this type of diversity was already there.
    -6000BC When you argue there is MASS infiltration of Levantines into Egypt the Northern cultural traditions that are antecedent to those in the Nile Valley had already reached Kenya and the Great Lakes region. Regions that have this Northern Admixture are dominated by V68 and V1515. Late influx does not allow the time depth for a East African origin of v1515 12kya. This is also around the time that Cushitic speakers are tied to Chadics with something like L3f3.
    -Tying LATE Levantine migration to key events in North African history is like associating them with M1 and U6. Neolithic West Asian doesn't even have the precursors.
    So to Reiterate - IF there was a late Neolithic mass influx, there would have to be at subsequent total elite dominance by existing African populations in the region to leave a Strong paternal signature but little autosomal ancestry.

    Not too long ago people were arguing there was no North West African component. Now people are arguing one exists but there is no North East African component. Its quite clear that North East Africans SHARE some North African specific ancestry with Horn Africans at the EXCLUSION of SW Asians. In similar fashion Fulani and Saharan speakers have shared ancestry with Maghrebi at the EXCLUSION of SW Asians. It isn't Sub Saharan or SW Asian ancestry that has Ancient Egyptians looking like Horn African Tigre, its something rather local.
    Last edited by beyoku; 10-23-2021 at 05:56 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by beyoku View Post
    -Tying LATE Levantine migration to key events in North African history is like associating them with M1 and U6. Neolithic West Asian doesn't even have the precursors.
    So to Reiterate - IF there was a late Neolithic mass influx, there would have to be at subsequent total elite dominance by existing African populations in the region to leave a Strong paternal signature but little autosomal ancestry.

    Not too long ago people were arguing there was no North West African component. Now people are arguing one exists but there is no North East African component. Its quite clear that North East Africans SHARE some North African specific ancestry with Horn Africans at the EXCLUSION of SW Asians. In similar fashion Fulani and Saharan speakers have shared ancestry with Maghrebi at the EXCLUSION of SW Asians. It isn't Sub Saharan or SW Asian ancestry that has Ancient Egyptians looking like Horn African Tigre, its something rather local.
    Wouldn't capsians be an evidence of such migration ? How would you explain the strong similarities between the berber branch and semitic ? As for AEs looking like tigray people where did you get that from ?

    How would you explain that two copper age north africans had natufian ancestry :

    Target: Iberia_Central_CA_Afr:I4246
    Distance: 3.7370% / 0.03736979
    46.0 Anatolia_Barcin_N
    27.4 MAR_Iberomaurusian
    15.4 Levant_Natufian
    9.0 Yoruba
    2.2 WHG


    Target: ITA_Sardinia_C_o:I15940
    Distance: 4.0821% / 0.04082086
    42.4 MAR_Iberomaurusian
    34.2 Anatolia_Barcin_N
    16.2 Levant_Natufian
    7.2 Yoruba

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    Quote Originally Posted by drobbah View Post
    It's something I noticed as well on G25

    Target: Drobbah_FTDNA_scaled
    Distance: 5.6579% / 0.05657941 | ADC: 0.25x RC
    46.8 Sudanese
    32.8 Proto-Natufian_(simulated)
    8.4 ETH_4500BP
    8.2 ANA_(simulated)
    3.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N

    Target: Ogiek
    Distance: 2.1884% / 0.02188379 | ADC: 0.25x RC
    60.0 Sudanese
    19.6 ETH_4500BP
    15.6 Proto-Natufian_(simulated)
    2.8 ANA_(simulated)
    2.0 TUR_Barcin_N
    I could be wrong about this particular speculation, but maybe this might be due to infusion from groups during the late Natufian/early PPNA? During the late Natufian and, eventually, early PPNA, groups associated with the Harifian and Khiamian in the Sinai began dispersing north, east, and south, including toward Abu Madi I (the Southern Sinai; inhabited until 11,100 years ago, after which itís abandoned). But, those dispersing eventually merged with Final Natufian and eventually inchoate PPNA communities. After that point, because of severe aridificarion, the Sinai was almost entirely devoid of people for at least 1,000 years before being recolonized by PPNB groups (though, hunter-gatherers).

    Thereís no mention Iíve seen that there was any movement westward toward the Nile, but if, by that point, those of the Harifian and Khiamian backgrounds had begun mixing at least a little bit with Anatolian Hunter-gatherers like those to the north of them, and if assuming that at least a relatively small but significant number migrated to the Nile valley [and then southwards] and intermingled with and got absorbed by some pre-existing hunter-gatherers in the lower Nile (i.e., undetected migration), I suppose that could provide a source of the small Anatolian signal. Considering that PPNB individuals already had significant Anatolian ancestry, I assume itís reasonable to think that much of it arrived between the Late Natufian and inchoate PPNB.

    But then, the downsides of that hypothesis are that the PPNA proper didnít exist in the Sinai and those in the Sinai were retreating mainly elsewhere. Then, Early Pastoral Neolithic individuals had no Anatolian ancestry that weíre aware of, only Natufian-like ancestry, and theyíre amongst the earliest presumed Afro-Asiatic speakers available.

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