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Thread: Faces of Three Ancient Egyptians Brought to Life Using 2,000-Year-Old DNA

  1. #211
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    Quote Originally Posted by etrusco View Post
    do you mean the entire lot of Natufian ancestry or only the non west eurasian part?
    The entire lot of Natufian-like ancestry.
    And maybe more answers for Basal Eurasian ancestry when we have ancient samples from the Peninsular Arabia.
    We can’t know and explore for sure what we don’t even have sampled right?

    I see people mostly focus on the Levant, ancient North Africa, Subsahara Africa and Southern Europe eventually, but nobody seems to think about Peninsular Arabia on the other corner of Egypt.

    Just look at this map:




    From the new Middle East study. It is obvious that modern Peninsular Arabians are the most Natufian-like people.

    Last edited by Ylang-Ylang; 10-16-2021 at 02:59 PM.

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    Here's an explanation of Eurasian ancestry in the Nile Valley from Bar Yosef. He is explaining multiple invasions from Africa into the Levant, especially the last:

    "But invasions from the south did not cease (Fig. 3). The last one, during the Terminal Pleistocene (ca. 16–15 Ka cal BP), was that of the makers of the Mushabian and Ramonian industries who arrived from the Nile valley through northern Sinai and carried among their microliths the Helwan lunates. Their interbreeding with the local population as genetically demonstrated (Lazaridis et al., 2016) created the Natufian culture." https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...mEiQVQ#fig0015

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  4. #213
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ylang-Ylang View Post
    Would you like to explain why Peninsular Arabia is probably a sink and not a source of Natufian-like ancestry with modern Peninsular Arabian people having most of this Natufian-like ancestry today?
    I tend to think that lots is missing without ancient samples from Peninsular Arabia, another very important and significant neighbor of Egypt and the Levant. Actually a huge missing and not sampled ancient region.
    Or maybe Levant and Peninsular Arabia were almost identical at some point in history?
    I think there is more unknown hidden there.
    I think in a general sense, as Levantine Natufians carried some significant Taforalt-like signatures, their antecedents migrated from North Africa into the Levant and absorbed additional West Asian peoples. Those hunter-gatherers likely migrated to what is now Arabia and lived there, missing the later Levantine geneflow that resulted in more structured homogenizing ancestry profiles you see in later temporal stages characterized by the movement and mixing of relatively differentiated populations in the broader region of West Asia. In that sense, there is a possibility that Peninsular Arabians retained a very pristine Natufian-like rich component at a very high degree, maybe even living as semi-sedentary hunter-gatherers when agriculturalists from the Levant came later and mixed, creating the outcome of what we have in the Peninsular today.
    Last edited by Typic; 10-16-2021 at 03:19 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mansamusa View Post
    We have been arguing that the population of Ancient Egypt was descended from an indigenous African population native to the Egyptian and Nubian Nile Valley and the surrounding Sahara deserts. This is the heart of the matter.
    The idea that Ancient Egypt was an "indigenous" civilization in the sense that the anti-migrationist historians put in it before the aDNA era will likely be found as ridiculous as all other similar anti-migrationist theories put forth by the same bunch.

    We know now how vastly S Levant was reshaped both genetically and culturally in the Chalcolithic and Bronze Ages. The inflow of migrants to S Levant, possibly dominated by haplogroup T and carrying substantial S Caucasian/Iranian type ancestry, brought with it the Ghassulian culture (the Peqi’in Cave study).

    There are far too many archeological parallels between the Ghassulian culture of the Levant and the Amratian culture (Naqada I) of pre-dynastic Egypt to be ignored. You might be in for a rude shock if you think Naqada I in Egypt appeared on its own, "indigenously", without a similar substantial genetic inflow into Egypt as into S Levant. There actually may be more genetic traces left of this population in Egypt than in Levant. The dominance of Hg T in Peqi'in might have been due to some local founder's event, of course, but it's curious to note that this haplogroup is far better represented in modern Egypt (7-8%) than in the Levant (1-4%). Perhaps the Ghassulians/Amratians did better in Egypt than in the Levant, where they were soon overrun by other people, also carrying substantial Iranian/S Caucasian type ancestry, but dominated by Hg J (as was Egypt shortly after, I suspect).

    The history of pre-dynastic Egypt starting from the Neolithic, just as the history of S Levant of the same time period, seems to be the history of near-constant population inflows from the north.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Woozler View Post
    The idea that Ancient Egypt was an "indigenous" civilization in the sense that the anti-migrationist historians put in it before the aDNA era will likely be found as ridiculous as all other similar anti-migrationist theories put forth by the same bunch.

    We know now how vastly S Levant was reshaped both genetically and culturally in the Chalcolithic and Bronze Ages. The inflow of migrants to S Levant, possibly dominated by haplogroup T and carrying substantial S Caucasian/Iranian type ancestry, brought with it the Ghassulian culture (the Peqi’in Cave study).

    There are far too many archeological parallels between the Ghassulian culture of the Levant and the Amratian culture (Naqada I) of pre-dynastic Egypt to be ignored. You might be in for a rude shock if you think Naqada I in Egypt appeared on its own, "indigenously", without a similar substantial genetic inflow into Egypt as into S Levant. There actually may be more genetic traces left of this population in Egypt than in Levant. The dominance of Hg T in Peqi'in might have been due to some local founder's event, of course, but it's curious to note that this haplogroup is far better represented in modern Egypt (7-8%) than in the Levant (1-4%). Perhaps the Ghassulians/Amratians did better in Egypt than in the Levant, where they were soon overrun by other people, also carrying substantial Iranian/S Caucasian type ancestry, but dominated by Hg J (as was Egypt shortly after, I suspect).

    The history of pre-dynastic Egypt starting from the Neolithic, just as the history of S Levant of the same time period, seems to be the history of near-constant population inflows from the north.
    Would you argue ancient Rome was "indigenous"?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Woozler View Post
    The idea that Ancient Egypt was an "indigenous" civilization in the sense that the anti-migrationist historians put in it before the aDNA era will likely be found as ridiculous as all other similar anti-migrationist theories put forth by the same bunch.

    We know now how vastly S Levant was reshaped both genetically and culturally in the Chalcolithic and Bronze Ages. The inflow of migrants to S Levant, possibly dominated by haplogroup T and carrying substantial S Caucasian/Iranian type ancestry, brought with it the Ghassulian culture (the Peqi’in Cave study).

    There are far too many archeological parallels between the Ghassulian culture of the Levant and the Amratian culture (Naqada I) of pre-dynastic Egypt to be ignored. You might be in for a rude shock if you think Naqada I in Egypt appeared on its own, "indigenously", without a similar substantial genetic inflow into Egypt as into S Levant. There actually may be more genetic traces left of this population in Egypt than in Levant. The dominance of Hg T in Peqi'in might have been due to some local founder's event, of course, but it's curious to note that this haplogroup is far better represented in modern Egypt (7-8%) than in the Levant (1-4%). Perhaps the Ghassulians/Amratians did better in Egypt than in the Levant, where they were soon overrun by other people, also carrying substantial Iranian/S Caucasian type ancestry, but dominated by Hg J (as was Egypt shortly after, I suspect).

    The history of pre-dynastic Egypt starting from the Neolithic, just as the history of S Levant of the same time period, seems to be the history of near-constant population inflows from the north.
    Well, immigration between the Nile Valley and the Levant is a given. I just don't see how that equates to AE not being indigenous. And the cultural influences recorded from such migration suggest influence without major migration.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mansamusa View Post
    Here's an explanation of Eurasian ancestry in the Nile Valley from Bar Yosef. He is explaining multiple invasions from Africa into the Levant, especially the last:

    "But invasions from the south did not cease (Fig. 3). The last one, during the Terminal Pleistocene (ca. 16–15 Ka cal BP), was that of the makers of the Mushabian and Ramonian industries who arrived from the Nile valley through northern Sinai and carried among their microliths the Helwan lunates. Their interbreeding with the local population as genetically demonstrated (Lazaridis et al., 2016) created the Natufian culture." https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...mEiQVQ#fig0015
    What's your point ? Ultimately populations from North Africa at that time were themselves the product of an earlier back migration to Africa from the Levant. Trying to make them "indigenous" or "African" won't change the fact they shared more in common with west eurasians than any other kind of population.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cabaon View Post
    What's your point ? Ultimately populations from North Africa at that time were themselves the product of an earlier back migration to Africa from the Levant. Trying to make them "indigenous" or "African" won't change the fact they shared more in common with west eurasians than any other kind of population.
    A natural gradient of indigenous or autochthonous ancestry from the Southern Africa into the Horn of Africa to Egypt and into the Levant would make Egyptian populations share more in common with Levantines and West Eurasians.
    And this is before we even speak of internal and extremal groups along this cline migrating to add to or take from a West Eurasian affinity. What you are saying is somewhat of a given when facing no natural barrier.

    IF you believe this to be true:
    In conclusion, the analysis of Ethiopian′ and Egyptian′ whole-genome sequence data identifies modern Egyptians as the African population whose genome and haplotype frequency most closely resemble those of non-African populations. The fact that we could identify in Egyptians an African genomic component that is distinct from West and East African components further supports a minor degree of population continuity in Egypt since the OOA dispersal.
    Then we have to ask ourselves what would this type of "African genomic component" look like in ADMIXTURE analysis or formal stats? Who else has it? Where did it migrate to? Who is it preserved in? Was it elevated in the past?
    Last edited by beyoku; 10-18-2021 at 02:15 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by beyoku View Post
    A natural gradient of indigenous or autochthonous ancestry from the Southern Africa into the Horn of Africa to Egypt and into the Levant would make Egyptian populations share more in common with Levantines and West Eurasians.
    And this is before we even speak of internal and extremal groups along this cline migrating to add to or take from a West Eurasian affinity. What you are saying is somewhat of a given when facing no natural barrier.
    Given that we have natural barriers (deserts, forests...) and various ecological niches, having different populations in Africa is not surprising. Plus complexe climatic history.

    And it does seem that a big replacement event took place only thousands of years ago.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cabaon View Post
    What's your point ? Ultimately populations from North Africa at that time were themselves the product of an earlier back migration to Africa from the Levant. Trying to make them "indigenous" or "African" won't change the fact they shared more in common with west eurasians than any other kind of population.
    Populations in the Nile Valley 15,000 years ago were back-migrating Eurasians? Please share the studies that say so. In your opinion, was there ever a point when N. Africa actually had indigenous African inhabitants?

    Edit: And no AEs shared more in common with neighboring and contemporary Nile Valley and Saharan populations. I mean culturally. We are talking from the predynastic to the Old Kingdom, minus foreign invasions. We only need to get actual samples from these ancient populations to verify that. The heavy SW Asian influence obviously came from recorded instances of SW Asian migration in the region. For example, Hyksos. That's a historical fact. No one has denied it. No one is "making" AEs indigenous to Africa. That is simply what the word means. It is a culture that was shaped almost entirely in the Nile Valley, with influence from Nilo-Saharan peoples of the neighboring deserts and Nubian Nile Valley, and I expect the genetic record to reflect that.

    As has been explained, there was a cline of ancestry from the Nile Valley to the Southern Levant. That would make AEs closer to people from the Levant than to many populations in Africa. I am not sure how that makes you feel better. Considering the proximity of Egypt to the Levant, that is expected. We have more than three decades of archeology already explaining that SW Asian populations have received major ancestry from the Nile Valley since Natufians. The only people surprised by genetic evidence linking the Nile Valley to Natufians (i.e., via African migration to the Levant) are genetic bloggers who don't read history and no else.
    Last edited by Mansamusa; 10-18-2021 at 03:01 PM.

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