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Thread: Faces of Three Ancient Egyptians Brought to Life Using 2,000-Year-Old DNA

  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ajeje Brazorf View Post
    In Morocco there has been a massive influx of EEF (Eurasian) starting as early as 3700 BC, if not earlier. I am, however, open to any possibility regarding AEs 560 km south of Abusir el-Meleq. We'll see what the ancient DNA will say.

    Code:
    North_AE_proxy_scaled,0.0455292,0.1490796,-0.0469892,-0.1102082,-0.0006772,-0.0476902,-0.0154636,-0.0035538,0.0454452,0.0061596,0.0117894,-0.014507,0.029851,-0.0030278,0.0014928,-0.005728,-0.0107956,-0.0004814,-0.0038462,0.008279,0.006289,0.0034378,-0.0018734,0.0042172,-0.0016284
    Iberomaurusians can be modelled as mostly dzudzuana and craniometric/dental metric show them to be caucasoid, Capsians were described as caucasoids ("proto-mediterraneans") most likely near eastern migrants, You of course add these early european farmers and later during the late bronze age we see bell beaker settlements.

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cabaon View Post
    They don't really mean different things, see jebel sahaba dental metric for instance :



    and this is why they say this :



    Hanihara T and Ishida H, (2005) Metric dental variation of major human populations American Journal of Physical Anthropology, Volume 128 Issue 2, Pages 287 - 298.


    People from the Horn of Africa are genetically way closer to north africans/middle eastern people than to populations of West and Central Africa. Same pattern is seen when it comes to craniometrics and dental affinities. Would it be realistic to believe that people who lived further north and who had extensive exchanges with the middle east were as west eurasian as people who lived in Somalia ? Moreover whether Craniometric datas or dental datas, modern Upper Egyptians are still the closest people to them let's not forget this.
    It DOES mean something different.
    If NOT please describe the circumstances where populations that are measurably 50% Sub Saharan have the closest cranial affinity to predynastic mummies who are wholly North African or Levantine in their dental pattern?

    Take a REAL CLOSE LOOK at that dendrogram and see the position of Fezzans, North African Negroids, Tanzanians, Ugandans, ALL the Modern Egyptians samples and where they are in relation to the UNPOOLED Ancient Egyptians samples which shows the full range of diversity. The Tanzanian and Ugandan samples may be wholly or predominantly "Sub Saharan African". So go, explain.

    There is a lot of data showing pooled samples. Once you unpool it you can see the diversity that inclues a mixture of presumed North African Sub Saharan cranial patter and dental patters.
    So yeah, the excerpt from that book is waiting for your comment.

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  4. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michalis Moriopoulos View Post
    I would retort that if they spoke Egyptian as a first-language, identified as such ethnically (as opposed to as a nationality), and didn't have an overriding ethnic/confessional/caste affiliation superceding it, then I would agree, but highly I doubt they meet any of those criteria. The Beja have a separate ethnic history from Egyptians, though some of their ancestors or cousins might very well have served as Medjay. Either way it's well worth making a distinction between Cushitic and Egyptian-speaking people, especially if they are genetically distinct from each other.
    Well, at least be consistent, and make similar distinctions for Semitic-speaking Middle Easterners who you believe are more related to ancient Egyptians despite not having their entire origin in the Nile Valley adjacent to Egyptians, as in the case of the Beja. I am still not understanding the argument you are making here. The Beja/Medjay lived alongside and inside of Egypt for millennia. Yet, you believe that their genetic influence in that region is less important than Semitic-speaking people from the Levant, despite the fact that linguistic studies show that Cushitic is the closest language to Ancient Egyptian?

    Quote Originally Posted by Michalis Moriopoulos View Post
    I'm not sure what you have in mind here. To me late period is Hellenistic period onward. Are you predicting the Old Kingdom samples will lack ANF and Iran Neo ancestry? Do you think this was only introduced after the Hyksos?
    I make no predictions. I am just saying that the relationship between Ancient Egypt and Africa can only be fully understood with appropriate African samples available. As long as there are a lack of samples, I expect members of the Genetic blogging community to continue disingenuously classifying Ancient Egypt as Eurasian instead of African based on genetic similarity with available Eurasian ancient genomes for which there are no corresponding ancient African samples.

  5. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mansamusa View Post
    I expect members of the Genetic blogging community to continue disingenuously classifying Ancient Egypt as Eurasian instead of African based on genetic similarity with available Eurasian ancient genomes for which there are no corresponding ancient African samples.
    For the record....shouldn't we EXPECT that some native North East African substructure would be closest to Ancient Levantine autosomes based on geography?
    Natufian - The sample that forms the base of much Western Eurasian is from Israel. Abusir is 400 KM from Israel. 400KM...that's it.
    YES - I think overlapping substructure in this region is to be expected. But, there any additional diversity?
    Did North Africa, the Nile corridor, the Sahara have the type of diversity that has been generated with Ancient Near Eastern Samples?

    Did North Africa across the 30th parallel from Morocco to Egypt have the type of genetic diversity we see from Guinea to Somalia across the 10th parallel? I would actually argue it did.

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  7. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by beyoku View Post
    It DOES mean something different.
    If NOT please describe the circumstances where populations that are measurably 50% Sub Saharan have the closest cranial affinity to predynastic mummies who are wholly North African or Levantine in their dental pattern?

    Take a REAL CLOSE LOOK at that dendrogram and see the position of Fezzans, North African Negroids, Tanzanians, Ugandans, ALL the Modern Egyptians samples and where they are in relation to the UNPOOLED Ancient Egyptians samples which shows the full range of diversity. The Tanzanian and Ugandan samples may be wholly or predominantly "Sub Saharan African". So go, explain.

    There is a lot of data showing pooled samples. Once you unpool it you can see the diversity that inclues a mixture of presumed North African Sub Saharan cranial patter and dental patters.
    So yeah, the excerpt from that book is waiting for your comment.

    They are the closest after modern upper egyptians and you haven't adressed the fact that these populations from the Horn are more closely related to west eurasians than other sub-saharan africans.

    Just see how much closer to MENAs they are in comparison to people like you for example :

    Code:
     Distance to:	Eritrean
    0.17532342	Moroccan
    0.17644953	Saharawi
    0.18033804	Berber_MAR_ERR
    0.18262662	Berber_MAR_TIZ
    0.18699251	Algerian
    0.19786632	Mozabite
    0.20242012	Berber_Tunisia_Sen
    0.21337675	Egyptian
    0.22315565	Moroccan_North
    0.22614355	Berber_Tunisia_Chen
    0.26194987	Yemenite_Dhamar
    0.26552797	Yemenite_Al_Bayda
    0.27155714	Yemenite_Amran
    0.27245424	Yemenite_Ma'rib
    0.27529430	Palestinian
    0.27770647	Yemenite_Al_Jawf
    0.27924621	Jordanian
    0.28022540	Yemenite_Jew
    0.28470118	Yemenite_Mahra
    0.32035062	Palestinian_Beit_Sahour
    0.45411095	Gambian
    0.45540975	Mandenka
    0.48527348	Yoruba
    
    Distance to:	Ethiopian_Afar
    0.18925976	Saharawi
    0.18947515	Moroccan
    0.19300186	Berber_MAR_ERR
    0.19436596	Berber_MAR_TIZ
    0.20164119	Algerian
    0.21200278	Mozabite
    0.21906657	Berber_Tunisia_Sen
    0.23165474	Egyptian
    0.23849790	Moroccan_North
    0.24141690	Berber_Tunisia_Chen
    0.28158326	Yemenite_Dhamar
    0.28520023	Yemenite_Al_Bayda
    0.29073635	Yemenite_Amran
    0.29230855	Yemenite_Ma'rib
    0.29341050	Palestinian
    0.29715898	Yemenite_Al_Jawf
    0.29716375	Jordanian
    0.29982578	Yemenite_Jew
    0.30449495	Yemenite_Mahra
    0.33852091	Palestinian_Beit_Sahour
    0.43746162	Gambian
    0.43870889	Mandenka
    0.46885795	Yoruba
    
    Distance to:	Ethiopian_Tigray
    0.18236703	Moroccan
    0.18282087	Saharawi
    0.18670115	Berber_MAR_ERR
    0.18825557	Berber_MAR_TIZ
    0.19454050	Algerian
    0.20515832	Mozabite
    0.21110471	Berber_Tunisia_Sen
    0.22291152	Egyptian
    0.23131124	Moroccan_North
    0.23425068	Berber_Tunisia_Chen
    0.27239581	Yemenite_Dhamar
    0.27609269	Yemenite_Al_Bayda
    0.28185497	Yemenite_Amran
    0.28312376	Yemenite_Ma'rib
    0.28506023	Palestinian
    0.28813575	Yemenite_Al_Jawf
    0.28886571	Jordanian
    0.29077791	Yemenite_Jew
    0.29538504	Yemenite_Mahra
    0.33006684	Palestinian_Beit_Sahour
    0.44332482	Gambian
    0.44463122	Mandenka
    0.47469150	Yoruba
    0.18 with moroccans and 0.47/48 with yoruba...this is why using them to make ancient egyptians "indigenous africans" isn't going to tell us much. Craniometrically people like Tigray will always be vastly closer to people from the middle east and north africa than to "sub-saharans" therefore it's no surprise populations with ssa affinities such as modern and ancient upper egyptians will present affinities with them.
    Last edited by Cabaon; 10-08-2021 at 05:51 PM.

  8. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by beyoku View Post
    Oh, i definitely agree. The Ababda are Beja. My point is that they are native to the region and are not migrants from Ethiopia or Sudan. Their patrilineages are strongly M35 derived. I think the Hirbo sample has them fixed for M35/M78. My question is, in what way do these populations contribute to or descend from populations that also peopled pharaonic Egypt? Or, re we basically looking at Dark Skinned Arabians like these Rashiada who have VERY little African maternal lineages and Zero % Haplogroup E? Or Beja types, or a populations like Pastoral Neolithic Or even ANA type people? Beja, Nubians and Pastoral Neolithic are not all watered down Dinka.

    When we look at MOTA, and if we use MOTA as representative of native East African Hunter Gatherer ancestry in the Horn, there is clear evidence that incoming pastoralist and Farmers can reduce the native ancestry down to a fraction of what it was. How frequent did this happen in the Nile Valley? Its been a VERY long time since i read this book, but this was a section of Barry Kemp's book on Egypt.

    Attachment 46975Attachment 46978Attachment 46979Attachment 46980Attachment 46981

    How do we interpret fossil data that indicates when Ancient Egyptian samples are placed into a regional context they are not Levantine.....and as whole they group with Modern Ethiopian and Eritreans over modern Egyptians? Some Egyptians samples have an even closer relationship with Nubian samples than other Egyptians samples, and this is especially the case for the Predynastic series. So the whole series is PHYSICALLY akin to Horn populations that are modeled as 50% Sub Saharan while the predynastic is very close to Ancient and medieval Nubians whose ancient dna is modeled as 40% Sub Saharan. In face of this data people want to tell me they have no relation to the folks that they are actually connected to in the cranial analysis? While this assertions could be true (Like Natufian) it works when you include the variable that these populations could cluster this way based on African specific ancestry that IS NOT Sub Saharan. When people remove this variable the model collapses because IMO its the only thing that has archeological support. Otherwise Bronzed age Ancient Egyptians would basically be Palestinians......and Ancient Egyptian would have spoken Semitic.

    On another forum I trolled a bit and argued the new Egyptians samples would be More African than Abusir while having less Sub Saharan ancestry even if they are geographically closer to Nubia. People didnt buy it.
    Do you happen to know whether any modern Egyptian samples from Upper Egypt were included in these comparisons? I see Giza, Cairo and other lower locales mentioned but would these results replicate using a cohort from, say, Luxor?

  9. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cabaon View Post
    They are the closest after modern upper egyptians and you haven't adressed the fact that these populations from the Horn are more closely related to west eurasians than other sub-saharan africans.

    Just see how much closer to MENAs they are in comparison to people like you for example :

    0.18 with moroccans and 0.47/48 with yoruba...this is why using them to make ancient egyptians "indigenous africans" isn't going to tell us much. Craniometrically people like Tigray will always be vastly closer to people from the middle east and north africa than to "sub-saharans" therefore it's no surprise populations with ssa affinities such as modern and ancient upper egyptians will show links with them.
    Look at the unpooled data that shows ALL the cranial diversity. Most of the Egyptian material is closest to a lot of Nubian samples. Many of the Nubian and Egyptian samples have a dental profile that is completely North African / West Eurasian. A 100% West Eurasian population is not going to show affinity to the Sub Saharan African simply because that sub Saharan has admixture. It would be a like a tribe of Barak Obamas showing their closest affinity to a Pure Eurasian English sample, even more so than French, German and Portuguese. There would have to be something particular about that English sample for this to be the case. Perhaps it would be that the English sample is from "English in Australia" who have Aboriginal ancestry in their phenotype but are still 100% genetically "Eurasian".

    I did bring up the Horn Africans having admixture, multiple times. Their admixture as the SOLE reason that they show affinity to Ancient Egyptians doesn't makes sense unless those Ancient Egyptians were of equal admixture, or there were populations that the Egyptian had admixture with that made them physically LOOK LIKE they had 50% Dinka admixture.

  10. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by beyoku View Post
    Look at the unpooled data that shows ALL the cranial diversity. Most of the Egyptian material is closest to a lot of Nubian samples. Many of the Nubian and Egyptian samples have a dental profile that is completely North African / West Eurasian. A 100% West Eurasian population is not going to show affinity to the Sub Saharan African simply because that sub Saharan has admixture. It would be a like a tribe of Barak Obamas showing their closest affinity to a Pure Eurasian English sample, even more so than French, German and Portuguese. There would have to be something particular about that English sample for this to be the case. Perhaps it would be that the English sample is from "English in Australia" who have Aboriginal ancestry in their phenotype but are still 100% genetically "Eurasian".

    I did bring up the Horn Africans having admixture, multiple times. Their admixture as the SOLE reason that they show affinity to Ancient Egyptians doesn't makes sense unless those Ancient Egyptians were of equal admixture, or there were populations that the Egyptian had admixture with that made them physically LOOK LIKE they had 50% Dinka admixture.
    That is again meaningless since even modern north africans have ssa ancestry and ssa affinities in their dental morphology but it doesn't make them in any way similar to population south of the sahara nor does it mean they aren't similar to people from the middle east.

    "there were populations that the Egyptian had admixture with that made them physically LOOK LIKE they had 50% Dinka admixture." Even when taking this unpooled data into account, they still aren't exactly similar to them so 50% seems a bit far-fetched but wouldn't that already be the case for modern upper egyptians ?

  11. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nebuchadnezzar II View Post
    Do you happen to know whether any modern Egyptian samples from Upper Egypt were included in these comparisons? I see Giza, Cairo and other lower locales mentioned but would these results replicate using a cohort from, say, Luxor?
    Good question, its one i cant answer. I would think the dental data is going to be the North African profile in the entire sample. The cranial measurements show the diversity. Where I am going is this: If Natufian heterogeneity tells us anything, it proved features presumed to be Sub Saharan African may not be the case when looking at the Genetic record. If these features instead are thought to be related to North African ancestry then we should naturally look for North African samples that have these same presumed Sub Saharan affinities. Therefore when a 50/50 SSA/MENA sample shares closest affinity in features with a populations PRESUMED to be wholly North African or Levantine.......there MAY be a biologically North African population with these presumed Sub Saharan features.

    Nobody sees this because people want to act like ""North Africans" dont really Exist.

    @Cabaon. It doesn't necessarily have to make sense to you. It's a reality when you are looking at the skulls. You can CLEARLY see how all the predynastic samples are similar to Ancient and Modern Nubians and the Tigre right? Its right there.

    I am 10% European, i dont cluster with European skulls. If I was 50% European.....i still wouldn't cluster wit pure Europeans skulls. Maybe if i was 80 or 90% European i would cluster with Pure Europeans. But in this analysis Ethiopian and Sudanese are not 90% North African / Levantine are they?......are they? Hint Hint....
    Last edited by beyoku; 10-08-2021 at 06:31 PM.

  12. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mansamusa View Post
    The Beja in any event represent a population that are indigenous to Nile Valley (i.e., if they are indeed descended from Medjay as is often assumed) and are very much a part of Egyptian history
    “Beja groups, who generally reside in eastern areas of Sudan close to the sea, show high non-African admixture in all tests […] most populations from northeast Sudan (Nubian, Sudanese Arab and Beja groups) seem to be a mixture of Middle Eastern and local northeast African genetic components”.

    Hollfelder et al. 2017

    Quote Originally Posted by Mansamusa View Post
    The idea of highly admixed, modern populations in North Africa being the standard for what ancient N. African populations looked like millennia ago cannot by any standard be described as scientific.
    Last edited by Philjames; 10-08-2021 at 09:58 PM.

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