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Thread: Faces of Three Ancient Egyptians Brought to Life Using 2,000-Year-Old DNA

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michalis Moriopoulos View Post
    . . .


    Right, but it is commonly claimed that Medjay were Beja or at least closely related. If that's true, then their people spoke a completely different language than Egyptians. So, yeah, that matters.



    If you mean you don't understand how ancient Egyptians could be more similar to Semitic speakers in the Near East than to Cushitic ones to their south, what's so hard to believe about that? Language doesn't perfectly correlate to ancestry because elite dominance is a thing and also admixture from various gene flow events can make a big difference. Hungarians have virtually no Siberian ancestry yet speak a Uralic language..
    All the limited historical aDNA that we have from Nubia and East Africa, for example, the upcoming Christian Nubian genomes and the Keyan Pastoral Neolithic samples, all show that they have "Eurasian ancestry" similar to that found in Ancient Egyptians. How does that make Cushitic groups less like Ancient Egyptians than Semitic groups? I am sorry but your argument on this remains incoherent.





    Quote Originally Posted by Michalis Moriopoulos View Post
    That component is clearly the West Eurasian element (heavy on the Natufian side).

    Most of the reconstructions I've seen of AEs look like what I would expect. Now you can criticize the methodology of these reconstructions and maybe you'd be right to, but I don't see obvious SSA features in them. They look pretty similar to Copts to me.



    As I said before, it's been a while since I've looked into the fossil record. What I remember is a lot of contradictory assessments of AEs and Nubians. When we have genomes from across Egypt and Nubia I will give the anthropometric record another go and see if I can make sense of what has been published knowing what the genetic situation was.
    If the component is clearly similar to Natufian ancestry, then it simply supports the argument that Natufian ancestry represents the Levantine end of ancestry that is indigenous to the Nile Valley and extends into the Levant. Some people on here have chosen to interpret it as Natufians being colonists who founded Egypt. That would have to mean that Natufians founded Beja/Medjay and even Ethiopian culture as well. I guess we are fast approaching the point where most East Africans, not just Egyptians, will be described as Eurasian. And when we reach that point, why would anyone object to Ancient Egyptians as being portrayed as having African affinities? If Beja, Ethiopians, Sudanese Arabs, and Copts all have that component in common (Levant Neolithic), why do you suppose that Arabs are more similar to Ancient Egyptians than Medjay/Beja? Why are Middle Easterners who lack that component compared to Ethiopians and Beja also closer to Ancient Egypt than the Beja or even Ethiopians? I simply do not get the logic here.



    Quote Originally Posted by Michalis Moriopoulos View Post
    I was responding to your response that it was "the late period" that introduced the uncontroversially Eurasian components I was talking about (ANF, Iran Neo). My contention is that those arrived during predynastic times but increased later on due to historic movements into Egypt from the Near East (e.g., Hyksos).



    That was the point of my statement-- we don't know how to differentiate between the two yet, but it's very possible Egyptians had different sources for their Natufian ancestry. At least some of it must have come in from the Levant with ANF and Iran Neo because those components would not have arrived in unmixed form. But a lot of it could be local to Egypt, perhaps even going back to the Paleolithic. Without prehistoric samples, we don't have anything to go on, but hopefully one day we might.
    Not knowing how to separate the two is the whole point of my argument. Unless we have the appropriate aDNA samples, I think that the victory laps being run by the "Ancient Egyptians are Eurasian" team around here make no sense and border on the verge of being absurd. I just do not understand the rigamarole around insisting that we use the term "Eurasian" to describe ancestry that is likely indigenous to the Nile valley and that in some cases are older in Africa than it is in the Middle East.

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    Quote Originally Posted by beyoku View Post
    There is no NEED for Neolithic migration into Nubia from the north if we have samples that already resemble Neolithic Nubians[/URL] and are Twice their age, in regions to the SOUTH of Nubia.
    They're not the same as Neolithic Nubians:

    "None of the (Al Khiday) crania have been reconstructed but they appear robust, perhaps not unlike contemporaneous Lower Nubians, Northwest African Iberomaurusians, or Central African Ishango. Odontometrics have also not been recorded, but all teeth appear much larger than more recent samples, again not unlike the above material. Yet, compared to Gebel Sahaba, Al Khiday teeth are simpler like in Holocene Nubians. In particular, distances with the Hierakonpolis C-Group and five Upper Nubian samples do not differ significantly. However, Al Khiday also expresses traits indicative of sub-Saharan origin, but like geographically proximate East Africans, and one Central African sample. (…)

    While divergent from some, Late Palaeolithic Al Khiday is closer to all samples than Gebel Sahaba. From this population then, craniofacial reduction relative to the masticatory-functional hypothesis cannot be ruled out, given indications of Al Khiday robusticity. Neither can selection for size reduction in all teeth following the Pleistocene. But the lack of reduction in dental morphological complexity does not support in situ caries selection in this Upper Nubian scenario."

    Irish & Usai 2021

    He's saying their teeth are similar enough that other morphological changes in the Neolithic could have occurred through in situ evolution, though he doesn't rule out a Neolithic population influx.

    Quote Originally Posted by beyoku View Post
    A way around this is just to push Natufian or Dzuzuana (or whatever the latest stand in) types into Africa 15 thousand years ago.
    Well it does seem likely that they (Al Khiday) had ancestry from northern Natufian/Dzudzuana related hunter-gatherers. The archaeological evidence points to this:

    "Nearly 70 graves (at Al-Khiday) belong to a pre-Mesolithic phase, showing an unusal ritual of body deposition. The individual was buried in a prone and elongated position, a rare ritual only attested to in Africa at Wadi Kubbaniya [Egypt] and Jebel Moya [Sudan], as well as in the Near East at several Natufian sites and in Europe at Dolni Vestonice [24,000 BC]. ... in contrast the Neolithic burials are all in a flexed contracted position."

    Salvatori et al. 2011, p.191

    "Tooth avulsion was observed in the majority of the 94 pre-Mesolithic Al Khiday individuals, involving the maxillary central incisors."

    Jakob 2017

    "Avulsion was found frequently in the Maghreb during the Late Pleistocene, but does not occur in any Late Pleistocene sample from the Nile Valley, East Africa or West Africa. Incisor avulsion was also not documented in any of the Early Holocene samples from West and East Africa. In fact, we found no evidence that Late Pleistocene Africans anywhere in the continent practiced incisor avulsion, with the exception of the Iberomaurusian peoples who did so at a nearly 100% rate (...)

    according to our survey incisor avulsion was only performed in far northern Africa during the Late Pleistocene. Based on data presented here we argue the practice spread south and east into the Sahara with the migrations of the African Humid Period. If true, then we would expect to see slightly younger examples of avulsion in the Nile Valley and younger still in East Africa. (...)

    Comparison of the pattern and prevalence of avulsion at key Late Pleistocene sites from throughout northern Africa indicates the practice was restricted to the Maghreb. Our interpretation of these data suggests some Maghrebi migrants re-settled the southern Sahara ... we note that at Gobero (Niger) phenotypic data suggest the presence of Maghrebi descendant populations during the Early Holocene."

    Stojanowski et al. 2014

    "evulsion was widespread amongst the (Iberomaurusian) hunter-gatherers of Northwest Africa by at least 15,000 years ago. The practice spread to the Sahara region by the early Holocene ... In other areas of the world the oldest evidence for common evulsion comes from the Late Natufian (13,000 Cal BP) in the Levant where evulsion was recorded in a number of individuals from Nahal Oren, Ain Mallaha, El Wad, Kebara and Shukbah."

    De Groote & Humphrey 2015

    "During the Late Pleistocene tooth evulsion was restricted to the Maghreb ... The earliest reported example of tooth evulsion is an isolated adult female skull from Taza, Eastern Algeria, from deposits dated between 16,100 and 13,800 BP ... In the sample studied here the frequency of central incisor evulsion was near universal with 94.8% of the sample showing evidence for the deliberate removal of at least one tooth. Considering the scarcity of evidence for evulsion in North Africa prior to the Late Pleistocene and its absence throughout the rest of the region during the Late Pleistocene, this observation would suggest that the practice of dental evulsion originated during the Iberomaurusian."

    De Groote & Humphrey 2016
    Last edited by Philjames; 10-09-2021 at 09:06 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Philjames View Post

    Well it does seem likely that they had ancestry from northern Natufian/Dzudzuana related hunter-gatherers. The archaeological evidence points to this:

    "Nearly 70 graves (at Al-Khiday) belong to a pre-Mesolithic phase, showing an unusal ritual of body deposition. The individual was buried in a prone and elongated position, a rare ritual only attested to in Africa at Wadi Kubbaniya [Egypt] and Jebel Moya [Sudan], as well as in the Near East at several Natufian sites and in Europe at Dolni Vestonice [24,000 BC]. ... in contrast the Neolithic burials are all in a flexed contracted position."

    Salvatori et al. 2011, p.191

    "Tooth avulsion was observed in the majority of the 94 pre-Mesolithic Al Khiday individuals, involving the maxillary central incisors."

    Jakob 2017

    "Avulsion was found frequently in the Maghreb during the Late Pleistocene, but does not occur in any Late Pleistocene sample from the Nile Valley, East Africa or West Africa. Incisor avulsion was also not documented in any of the Early Holocene samples from West and East Africa. In fact, we found no evidence that Late Pleistocene Africans anywhere in the continent practiced incisor avulsion, with the exception of the Iberomaurusian peoples who did so at a nearly 100% rate (...)

    according to our survey incisor avulsion was only performed in far northern Africa during the Late Pleistocene. Based on data presented here we argue the practice spread south and east into the Sahara with the migrations of the African Humid Period. If true, then we would expect to see slightly younger examples of avulsion in the Nile Valley and younger still in East Africa. (...)

    Comparison of the pattern and prevalence of avulsion at key Late Pleistocene sites from throughout northern Africa indicates the practice was restricted to the Maghreb. Our interpretation of these data suggests some Maghrebi migrants re-settled the southern Sahara ... we note that at Gobero (Niger) phenotypic data suggest the presence of Maghrebi descendant populations during the Early Holocene."

    Stojanowski et al. 2014

    "evulsion was widespread amongst the (Iberomaurusian) hunter-gatherers of Northwest Africa by at least 15,000 years ago. The practice spread to the Sahara region by the early Holocene ... In other areas of the world the oldest evidence for common evulsion comes from the Late Natufian (13,000 Cal BP) in the Levant where evulsion was recorded in a number of individuals from Nahal Oren, Ain Mallaha, El Wad, Kebara and Shukbah."

    De Groote & Humphrey 2015

    "During the Late Pleistocene tooth evulsion was restricted to the Maghreb ... The earliest reported example of tooth evulsion is an isolated adult female skull from Taza, Eastern Algeria, from deposits dated between 16,100 and 13,800 BP ... In the sample studied here the frequency of central incisor evulsion was near universal with 94.8% of the sample showing evidence for the deliberate removal of at least one tooth. Considering the scarcity of evidence for evulsion in North Africa prior to the Late Pleistocene and its absence throughout the rest of the region during the Late Pleistocene, this observation would suggest that the practice of dental evulsion originated during the Iberomaurusian."

    De Groote & Humphrey 2016
    Thats pretty interesting. Incisor avulsion was still practiced relatively recently by populations living along the African Red Sea coast.


    The second kingdom of the Beja is that of Baqlīn, which has many towns and is very large. Their religion is similar to that of the Magians and the Dualists; they call the Almighty God by the name "az-zabhīr" and the devil by the name "sahāy harāqa". They pull out the hair of their chin and remove their central incisors.

    Ta'rīkh al-Ya'qubī, 9th Century AD



    The fourth kingdom is called Jārīn. They have a dreadful king, whose rule extends from Badi on the Red Sea coast, to the frontier of Barakāt in the territory of the Baqlīn, until a place called Hall ad-dujāj. They, too, remove their upper and lower incisors lest - they say they resemble the teeth of asses; they also pull out the hair of their chins.

    Ta'rīkh al-Ya'qubī, 9th Century AD
    These "Dualist" / "Zoroastarian"-like Beja (possibly gnostics christians?) seem to have retained the practice up until at least the 9th century.
    Last edited by Mnemonics; 10-09-2021 at 10:27 PM.

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    Assuming a Hyksos-AE narrative, I estimated that the ancient Egyptians we have available to us all have around 70% Hyksos-like (proxied by Shadud_MLBA) and 30% Neolithic Egyptian-like (proxied by Natufian and Taforalt). I found no need for Dinka-like or Kenyan Pastoral_N-like for them, but I found that Taforalt was needed. Note the pretty consistent scores across the four individuals; I would be shocked if this wasn't the standard Egyptian profile of the era.

     
    Target Distance Levant_Natufian Levant_Shadud_MLBA
    Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian:SFI-43 0.03947624 38.6 61.4
    EGY_Hellenistic_contam:JK2888 0.06166188 39.4 60.6
    EGY_Late_Period:JK2134 0.05184928 35.8 64.2
    EGY_Late_Period:JK2911 0.03562187 36.2 63.8
    Average 0.04715232 37.5 62.5

    Target Distance Dinka Levant_Natufian Levant_Shadud_MLBA
    Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian:SFI-43 0.03318529 3.4 32.8 63.8
    EGY_Hellenistic_contam:JK2888 0.05900218 2.8 34.6 62.6
    EGY_Late_Period:JK2134 0.04913211 2.6 31.4 66.0
    EGY_Late_Period:JK2911 0.03457619 1.4 33.8 64.8
    Average 0.04397394 2.5 33.1 64.3

    Target Distance Dinka Levant_Natufian Levant_Shadud_MLBA MAR_Taforalt
    Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian:SFI-43 0.02902443 1.4 23.0 68.8 6.8
    EGY_Hellenistic_contam:JK2888 0.05711875 0.0 24.2 68.0 7.8
    EGY_Late_Period:JK2134 0.04500267 0.0 19.2 72.2 8.6
    EGY_Late_Period:JK2911 0.02702428 0.0 21.0 71.2 7.8
    Average 0.03954253 0.4 21.8 70.0 7.8

    Target Distance Levant_Natufian Levant_Shadud_MLBA MAR_Taforalt
    Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian:SFI-43 0.02979495 22.0 69.4 8.6
    EGY_Hellenistic_contam:JK2888 0.05711875 24.2 68.0 7.8
    EGY_Late_Period:JK2134 0.04500267 19.2 72.2 8.6
    EGY_Late_Period:JK2911 0.02702428 21.0 71.2 7.8
    Average 0.03973516 21.6 70.2 8.2

    Target Distance KEN_Early_Pastoral_N Levant_Natufian Levant_Shadud_MLBA MAR_Taforalt
    Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian:SFI-43 0.02822956 4.2 21.0 68.6 6.2
    EGY_Hellenistic_contam:JK2888 0.05652042 3.6 23.6 67.2 5.6
    EGY_Late_Period:JK2134 0.04468149 2.4 18.6 71.8 7.2
    EGY_Late_Period:JK2911 0.02702428 0.0 21.0 71.2 7.8
    Average 0.03911394 2.6 21.0 69.7 6.7

    Target Distance KEN_Pastoral_N Levant_Natufian Levant_Shadud_MLBA MAR_Taforalt
    Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian:SFI-43 0.02826186 3.4 21.6 68.8 6.2
    EGY_Hellenistic_contam:JK2888 0.05663496 2.6 24.4 67.2 5.8
    EGY_Late_Period:JK2134 0.04478334 1.6 19.2 71.8 7.4
    EGY_Late_Period:JK2911 0.02702428 0.0 21.0 71.2 7.8
    Average 0.03917611 1.9 21.5 69.8 6.8


    Assuming a mixed Neolithic and/or Chalcolithic Levant-Hyksos-AE narrative, I found that Shadud_MLBA is still preferred as the majority component at around 60%:
    Target Distance IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N Levant_Natufian Levant_PPNB Levant_Shadud_MLBA MAR_Taforalt
    Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian:SFI-43 0.02941578 0.0 18.4 6.6 66.2 8.8
    EGY_Hellenistic_contam:JK2888 0.05668014 0.4 18.8 11.0 61.8 8.0
    EGY_Late_Period:JK2134 0.04117189 0.0 5.0 25.6 59.8 9.6
    EGY_Late_Period:JK2911 0.02563644 3.4 14.0 20.2 55.0 7.4
    Average 0.03822606 1.0 14.1 15.8 60.7 8.5

    That said, the individuals score a bit less consistently in that model relative to the previous ones, although that likely has more to do with having more distal source components and, simply, more components to choose from.

    A few notes as someone who has been reading the thread regularly these last few days:
    1. I think everyone who cares about this topic and about Natufians should start to understand just how imperfect of a proxy Natufians are for many of our relevant questions. Natufians are almost certainly not proto-AAs or the source of most "Natufian-like" ancestry anywhere, whether in the Levant or in North/east Africa. Their Y-chromosomes- E-Z830* if not pre-Z830- are dead ends. There is a need for another NE African group coming into the Levant c. 11kybp (?) to explain Semitic and more derived clades of E-M35. Once we realize that Natufians are simply the best we have right now, we'll be able to get out of the (IMO incorrect) assumption that any Natufian-like ancestry in Africa is from the prehistoric Levant.

    2. The similarity between these ancient Egyptians and ancient Levantines cannot be simplified into the presence of the Natufian-like component in both (which I agree is ultimately NE African). This is for two reasons: one, the ancient Egyptians we have are at most 50% Natufian-like when you include other Neolithic West Asian references:
    Target Distance GEO_CHG IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N Levant_Natufian MAR_Taforalt TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
    Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian:SFI-43 0.04216922 6.8 7.4 50.0 3.0 32.8
    EGY_Hellenistic_contam:JK2888 0.06002102 0.0 11.6 45.6 3.4 39.4
    EGY_Late_Period:JK2134 0.04787971 6.0 4.0 42.2 4.4 43.4
    EGY_Late_Period:JK2911 0.03729139 5.0 9.0 48.0 2.2 35.8
    Average 0.04684034 4.5 8.0 46.4 3.3 37.8

    and two, because Hyksos-like Levantines also have Natufian-like as a minority component (though clearly not as high as the AEs):
    Target: Levant_Shadud_MLBA
    Distance: 3.8822% / 0.03882195
    54.0 TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
    25.4 Levant_Natufian
    12.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
    8.0 GEO_CHG

    3. I think this discussion would be best served if mention of phenotypes just stopped. Every page of the thread there's at least one post that includes something about them, and none have improved the discussion or our gained knowledge/understanding at all.
    Last edited by leorcooper19; 10-09-2021 at 02:24 PM.
     
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    I think native NE Africans will be a more basal form of Natufians. West Eurasian backflow is much older than 23kya to support appearance of Iberomaurusians. Goyet-related ancestry is also found there. It seems statistically sound. Probably from European Aurignacian as well, which I believe Bar-Yosef is even supporting now as influential after 35kya in the Levant.

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  10. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by leorcooper19 View Post
    Assuming a Hyksos-AE narrative, I estimated that the ancient Egyptians we have available to us all have around 70% Hyksos-like (proxied by Shadud_MLBA) and 30% Neolithic Egyptian-like (proxied by Natufian and Taforalt). I found no need for Dinka-like or Kenyan Pastoral_N-like for them, but I found that Taforalt was needed. Note the pretty consistent scores across the four individuals; I would be shocked if this wasn't the standard Egyptian profile of the era.

     
    Target Distance Levant_Natufian Levant_Shadud_MLBA
    Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian:SFI-43 0.03947624 38.6 61.4
    EGY_Hellenistic_contam:JK2888 0.06166188 39.4 60.6
    EGY_Late_Period:JK2134 0.05184928 35.8 64.2
    EGY_Late_Period:JK2911 0.03562187 36.2 63.8
    Average 0.04715232 37.5 62.5

    Target Distance Dinka Levant_Natufian Levant_Shadud_MLBA
    Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian:SFI-43 0.03318529 3.4 32.8 63.8
    EGY_Hellenistic_contam:JK2888 0.05900218 2.8 34.6 62.6
    EGY_Late_Period:JK2134 0.04913211 2.6 31.4 66.0
    EGY_Late_Period:JK2911 0.03457619 1.4 33.8 64.8
    Average 0.04397394 2.5 33.1 64.3

    Target Distance Dinka Levant_Natufian Levant_Shadud_MLBA MAR_Taforalt
    Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian:SFI-43 0.02902443 1.4 23.0 68.8 6.8
    EGY_Hellenistic_contam:JK2888 0.05711875 0.0 24.2 68.0 7.8
    EGY_Late_Period:JK2134 0.04500267 0.0 19.2 72.2 8.6
    EGY_Late_Period:JK2911 0.02702428 0.0 21.0 71.2 7.8
    Average 0.03954253 0.4 21.8 70.0 7.8

    Target Distance Levant_Natufian Levant_Shadud_MLBA MAR_Taforalt
    Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian:SFI-43 0.02979495 22.0 69.4 8.6
    EGY_Hellenistic_contam:JK2888 0.05711875 24.2 68.0 7.8
    EGY_Late_Period:JK2134 0.04500267 19.2 72.2 8.6
    EGY_Late_Period:JK2911 0.02702428 21.0 71.2 7.8
    Average 0.03973516 21.6 70.2 8.2

    Target Distance KEN_Early_Pastoral_N Levant_Natufian Levant_Shadud_MLBA MAR_Taforalt
    Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian:SFI-43 0.02822956 4.2 21.0 68.6 6.2
    EGY_Hellenistic_contam:JK2888 0.05652042 3.6 23.6 67.2 5.6
    EGY_Late_Period:JK2134 0.04468149 2.4 18.6 71.8 7.2
    EGY_Late_Period:JK2911 0.02702428 0.0 21.0 71.2 7.8
    Average 0.03911394 2.6 21.0 69.7 6.7

    Target Distance KEN_Pastoral_N Levant_Natufian Levant_Shadud_MLBA MAR_Taforalt
    Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian:SFI-43 0.02826186 3.4 21.6 68.8 6.2
    EGY_Hellenistic_contam:JK2888 0.05663496 2.6 24.4 67.2 5.8
    EGY_Late_Period:JK2134 0.04478334 1.6 19.2 71.8 7.4
    EGY_Late_Period:JK2911 0.02702428 0.0 21.0 71.2 7.8
    Average 0.03917611 1.9 21.5 69.8 6.8


    Assuming a mixed Neolithic and/or Chalcolithic Levant-Hyksos-AE narrative, I found that Shadud_MLBA is still preferred as the majority component at around 60%:
    Target Distance IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N Levant_Natufian Levant_PPNB Levant_Shadud_MLBA MAR_Taforalt
    Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian:SFI-43 0.02941578 0.0 18.4 6.6 66.2 8.8
    EGY_Hellenistic_contam:JK2888 0.05668014 0.4 18.8 11.0 61.8 8.0
    EGY_Late_Period:JK2134 0.04117189 0.0 5.0 25.6 59.8 9.6
    EGY_Late_Period:JK2911 0.02563644 3.4 14.0 20.2 55.0 7.4
    Average 0.03822606 1.0 14.1 15.8 60.7 8.5

    It's preferred because the calculator prefers mixed sources

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    Quote Originally Posted by Usr49 View Post
    It's preferred because the calculator prefers mixed sources
    I explained part of this in my #2 point, but it's worthwhile to explain it fully; while this can be a methodological flaw with G25, we can actually test your hypothesis by comparing the distal model (Neolithic and earlier sources) with the proximal model (those with Shadud_MLBA).

    For the Hyksos-NE narrative, I'm claiming that there's a 7:3 ratio between the two. We have the average scores in the distal models for both the ancient Egyptians and our Hyksos proxy, Shadud_MLBA. Let's compare what we would expect the distal models should show (according to my claim) with what the proximal model implies.
    Natufian: is 25.4% of Shadud_MLBA, 70% of which is 17.8%. Add 21.6% extra Natufian (avg for AEs) to get 39.4% total Natufian.
    Tepecik: is 54% of Shadud_MLBA, 70% of which is 37.8%.
    Ganj_Dareh_N: is 12.6% of Shadud_MLBA, 70% of which is 8.8%.
    GEO_CHG: is 8% of Shadud_MLBA, 70% of which is 5.6%.
    Taforalt: is not scored by Shadud_MLBA, and is scored at an average of 8.5% in the distal model for AEs.

    So, by extrapolating from the proximal model, we should expect to see these scores for ancient Egyptians:
    Natufian 39.4%
    Tepecik 37.8%
    Ganj_Dareh_N 8.8%
    GEO_CHG 5.6%
    Taforalt 8.5%

    and what do we actually see when we model them with these components?
    Natufian 46.4%
    Tepecik 37.8%
    Ganj_Dareh_N 8%
    GEO_CHG 4.5%
    Taforalt 3.3%

    The West Asian ones are all almost exactly- if not exactly- the same, while the North African ones have traded a bit, with Natufian being a bit preferred over Taforalt in the distal model relative to the extrapolated proximal model. Still, they add up to almost the same: 47.9% in the proximal model, and 49.7% in the distal one. This demonstrates that the calculator preferring mixed references cannot be the cause of the scores we see. Conversely, it now seems all the more probable that these AEs we have were indeed of majority Levantine descent.
    Last edited by leorcooper19; 10-09-2021 at 04:39 PM. Reason: added bold
     
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  13. #128
    I don't think so. the calculator will just compensate and cope with the specific sources you are giving it resulting in different proportions that don’t necessarily check out when you break them down into ultimate sources and these ultimate sources are not necessarily exactly what they have but what's available to us. these calculations are pointless and it doesn't give us anything meaningful

  14. #129
    Registered Users
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ajeje Brazorf View Post
    In Morocco there has been a massive influx of EEF (Eurasian) starting as early as 3700 BC, if not earlier. I am, however, open to any possibility regarding AEs 560 km south of Abusir el-Meleq. We'll see what the ancient DNA will say.

    Code:
    North_AE_proxy_scaled,0.0455292,0.1490796,-0.0469892,-0.1102082,-0.0006772,-0.0476902,-0.0154636,-0.0035538,0.0454452,0.0061596,0.0117894,-0.014507,0.029851,-0.0030278,0.0014928,-0.005728,-0.0107956,-0.0004814,-0.0038462,0.008279,0.006289,0.0034378,-0.0018734,0.0042172,-0.0016284
    That’s not really my point which is we have attested Eurasian cultural influences in North Africa, dating at least from Neolithic, and probably before.

    Domestication of capra, bos... was not local, but the animals found have an origine in domesticated animals in Fertile Crescent. It does mean that Egypt received the Neolithic package from another region: Levant.

    Cultural or demic diffusion? We have at least some traces of West Eurasian introgression in North Africa, with the example of R1b V88.

    It is therefore completely stupid to say that there were no Eurasian influences. But we can discuss the dates, the levels...
    Last edited by ffoucart; 10-09-2021 at 05:48 PM.

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  16. #130
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    By the way, there is something strange about these Egyptian samples: they have more CHG but less Iran_N than Levantines who lived in 2243 BC (Early Bronze Age)...

    [1] "distance%=3.2865"

    Ajeje Brazorf

    EEF,54.6
    CHG,14.2
    MIDDLE_EAST,10.2
    IRAN_N,8.8
    ANE,6.4
    WHG,4.2
    TAFORALT,1.6

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