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Thread: Faces of Three Ancient Egyptians Brought to Life Using 2,000-Year-Old DNA

  1. #161
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    The idea that a portion of the Natufian-like ancestry in the AEs is probably of Pleistocene vintage is exactly what I said pages ago.

    There is still going to be ANF and Iran Neo ancestry in the Old Kingdom AEs. Guess what: that's not going to be Pleistocene, and they would not have come alone as a package but with other elements (read: Natufian ancestry from the Near East). That means even if a portion of their Natufian ancestry is pre-Holocene, some of it must be Holocene, too. Unless you really think ANFs just wandered into Egypt unmixed with Natufian ancestry, which is about as likely as CHG ancestry wandering into Late Neolithic/Bronze Age Greece in unmixed form.
    Ελευθερία ή θάνατος.

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    Quote Originally Posted by beyoku View Post
    The problem is that you are just making it all up as you go along. I didnt think you would read the article and comment as if you now know everything about the Al Khiday sample. I assumed you would do FURTHER research and you kinda did, but it didnt click.

    What did you get out of the article saying: Al Khiday is patently indigenous to greater northeast Africa, as are its Holocene successors in Nubia?
    What did you get out of the article saying : Thus, population continuity is indicated after all, but with late Pleistocene Upper—rather than Lower Nubians as originally suggested?
    Most importantly, HOW did you read about incisor avulsion, its origin in North Africa, write half a post about it then go right back to Dzuzuana/Levantines?
    Why wouldn't it click in your mind if these skeletons have this North African feature, they may have North African and ancestry?
    How do you reconcile Gobero having this feature indicating North African admixture yet having Extreme tropically adapted limbs indicating also a colonization from the South?
    No comment on this? You seem to have missed it:

    "Nearly 70 graves (at Al-Khiday) belong to a pre-Mesolithic phase, showing an unusal ritual of body deposition. The individual was buried in a prone and elongated position, a rare ritual only attested to in Africa at Wadi Kubbaniya [Egypt] and Jebel Moya [Sudan], as well as in the Near East at several Natufian sites and in Europe at Dolni Vestonice [24,000 BC]. ... in contrast the Neolithic burials are all in a flexed contracted position."

    Salvatori et al. 2011, p.191
    Last edited by Philjames; 10-13-2021 at 12:21 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Philjames View Post
    They're not the same as Neolithic Nubians:

    "Avulsion was found frequently in the Maghreb during the Late Pleistocene, but does not occur in any Late Pleistocene sample from the Nile Valley, East Africa or West Africa. Incisor avulsion was also not documented in any of the Early Holocene samples from West and East Africa. In fact, we found no evidence that Late Pleistocene Africans anywhere in the continent practiced incisor avulsion, with the exception of the Iberomaurusian peoples who did so at a nearly 100% rate (...)
    Not quite. For West Africa in general, the human remains of a relevant age are very few in number, but for one of the earliest, tooth avulsion appears to have been something it experienced. The remains of an individual from Asselar in north-central Mali named Asselar Man or Homme d’Assslar from about 6,400 years ago had its upper incisors deliberately removed. Although, I might add that this individual was not far at all from a group of southern Iberomaurusians also in north Mali (in Hassi El-Abiob) whose remains were also dated to a similar date (7,000 years ago). I suppose it’s possible that the practice may have spread to the locale of the Asselar individual by neighboring Iberomaurusians. Although, oddly, the remains seem to be of those who didn’t participate in tooth avulsion. There might be two other cases in the Southern Sahara, too, in Ibalaghen, Mali and Yao, Chad, but the exact causes of their missing teeth are much less certain.

    Asselar:

    D694A89A-1D5C-4E78-90A5-2B5896608E41.jpeg

    Hassi El-Abiob:

    F18ED903-7C72-493B-A2BB-18A9BD2C902C.png 3572D83C-24C2-46E4-A712-FF98060C2BAB.png

    This is a relevant quote as well:

    The most ancient individual from the Southern Sahara is from Asselar, attributable to the Upper Paleolithic (BOULE & VALLOIS 1932): this individual has undergone the extraction of all four upper incisors. Starting with the Neolithic, the pieces showing dental mutilations become more abundant: at Khartum, one individual, dated to the earth Neolithic “Early Khartum (Derry 1949), displays and ablation of the upper central incisors. An identical case has been identified at Fayum, near Cairo (Anonymous 1938, citing by DERRY 1949. See Briggs 1955: 212).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Philjames View Post
    No comment on this? You seem to have missed it:

    "Nearly 70 graves (at Al-Khiday) belong to a pre-Mesolithic phase, showing an unusal ritual of body deposition. The individual was buried in a prone and elongated position, a rare ritual only attested to in Africa at Wadi Kubbaniya [Egypt] and Jebel Moya [Sudan], as well as in the Near East at several Natufian sites and in Europe at Dolni Vestonice [24,000 BC]. ... in contrast the Neolithic burials are all in a flexed contracted position."

    Salvatori et al. 2011, p.191
    What am i Missing? I guess i am supposed to assume they are related to Czechs due to the way the skeleton was positioned?
    Do know you know the physical and cultural characteristics of Wadi Kubbaniyans, Jebel Moyans, Wadi Tushkans, Jebel
    Shaqadud, El Barga, etc
    ?
    Have you read any of Wendorf or Wengrow books or publications on the Egyptian Western Desert or that southern portion of Egypt?

    I mean, i am willing to work with you, but you have to give me something.

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    Quote Originally Posted by beyoku View Post
    Good question, its one i cant answer. I would think the dental data is going to be the North African profile in the entire sample. The cranial measurements show the diversity. Where I am going is this: If Natufian heterogeneity tells us anything, it proved features presumed to be Sub Saharan African may not be the case when looking at the Genetic record. If these features instead are thought to be related to North African ancestry then we should naturally look for North African samples that have these same presumed Sub Saharan affinities. Therefore when a 50/50 SSA/MENA sample shares closest affinity in features with a populations PRESUMED to be wholly North African or Levantine.......there MAY be a biologically North African population with these presumed Sub Saharan features.

    Nobody sees this because people want to act like ""North Africans" dont really Exist.

    @Cabaon. It doesn't necessarily have to make sense to you. It's a reality when you are looking at the skulls. You can CLEARLY see how all the predynastic samples are similar to Ancient and Modern Nubians and the Tigre right? Its right there.

    I am 10% European, i dont cluster with European skulls. If I was 50% European.....i still wouldn't cluster wit pure Europeans skulls. Maybe if i was 80 or 90% European i would cluster with Pure Europeans. But in this analysis Ethiopian and Sudanese are not 90% North African / Levantine are they?......are they? Hint Hint....
    Ah, a pity. If we were able to contextualize say, the Naqada series, relative to modern Upper Egyptian diversity, I think it would be more remarkable than not if they still preferred their southern neighbours. I think I understand your position and appreciate your commitment to a prediction.
    Last edited by Nebuchadnezzar II; 10-13-2021 at 01:45 PM.

  8. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keneki20 View Post
    Not quite. For West Africa in general, the human remains of a relevant age are very few in number, but for one of the earliest, tooth avulsion appears to have been something it experienced. The remains of an individual from Asselar in north-central Mali named Asselar Man or Homme d’Assslar from about 6,400 years ago
    That's after the 'Early Holocene', which ends about 8000 years ago.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Philjames View Post
    That's after the 'Early Holocene', which ends about 8000 years ago.
    That basically limits the already scant number of relevant sites to one, which is Gobero in Central Niger, which was essentially inhabited by southern Iberomaurusians (the Kiffians), who appear to have been intrusive to West Africa. But tooth avulsion is already something Iberomuarusians did very frequently anyway. So, I'm not really sure that tells a whole lot.

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    "Nearly 70 graves (at Al-Khiday) belong to a pre-Mesolithic phase, showing an unusal ritual of body deposition. The individual was buried in a prone and elongated position, a rare ritual only attested to in Africa at Wadi Kubbaniya [Egypt] and Jebel Moya [Sudan], as well as in the Near East at several Natufian sites and in Europe at Dolni Vestonice [24,000 BC]. ... in contrast the Neolithic burials are all in a flexed contracted position."

    Quote Originally Posted by beyoku View Post
    What am i Missing? I guess i am supposed to assume they are related to Czechs due to the way the skeleton was positioned?
    Do you have a blind spot?

  11. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by Philjames View Post
    "Nearly 70 graves (at Al-Khiday) belong to a pre-Mesolithic phase, showing an unusal ritual of body deposition. The individual was buried in a prone and elongated position, a rare ritual only attested to in Africa at Wadi Kubbaniya [Egypt] and Jebel Moya [Sudan], as well as in the Near East at several Natufian sites and in Europe at Dolni Vestonice [24,000 BC]. ... in contrast the Neolithic burials are all in a flexed contracted position."
    I believe the reason why he objects is that since the quote you used mentions Wadi Kubbaniya, for instance, which precedes the Natufians by thousands of years and, at least so far, does not show signs of a particularly close affinity with the Natufians (lack of genetic testing compounds that), then using that to suggest that the Al-Khiday individuals had Natufian-related (or Dzudzuana-related) ancestry will not be all that convincing, since there's already an alternative.

    I suppose there are other ways of trying to support your conclusion, such as looking at Epipaleolithic archaeological sites in the lowermost Nile Valley that predate the Natufians, yet still have some fairly clear links to the Sinai and Southernmost Levant. However, none of the available sites in the lowermost Nile Valley have yielded human remains one could make a comparison with yet. Unfortunately, there are almost no sites to work with in that part of Egypt, but that's most likely due to considerably fewer excavations compared to Egypt's south. I suppose these hypotheses can be verified in the [hopefully-not-too-distant] future.

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  13. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keneki20 View Post
    That basically limits the already scant number of relevant sites to one, which is Gobero in Central Niger, which was essentially inhabited by southern Iberomaurusians (the Kiffians), who appear to have been intrusive to West Africa. But tooth avulsion is already something Iberomuarusians did very frequently anyway. So, I'm not really sure that tells a whole lot.
    The map on p.87 of the paper shows Late Pleistocene and Early Holocene samples from sub-Saharan Africa.

    Stojanowski et al. 2014
    Last edited by Philjames; 10-13-2021 at 08:38 PM.

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