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Thread: Faces of Three Ancient Egyptians Brought to Life Using 2,000-Year-Old DNA

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    Do copper age Maghrebi-like samples from Iberia(2500-2000 BCE) and Sardinia(also 2500-2000 BCE) show evidence of Neolithic Levantine ancestry? I believe they do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mansamusa View Post
    Dzudzuana is more than 10,000 years older than Natufians. Do you genuinely believe that there is a direct ancestral relationship between Dzudzuana and Natufians?
    Anatolia_Epipaleolithic is basically identical to Dzudzuana and existed at the same time as Natufians.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mansamusa View Post
    Dzudzuana is more than 10,000 years older than Natufians. Do you genuinely believe that there is a direct ancestral relationship between Dzudzuana and Natufians?
    Except for Afanasievo and Yamnaya off-hand, I can't recall any genetic relationship that is direct, rather than proximal. It's a sort of trivial fact about ancient DNA.

    Recalling your hypothesis, you think the Natufian-related signal in N/E Africa is not due to Eurasian introgression but rather shared NE African ancestry that spills over into the Near East. But this wouldn't work given: A.) The lions share of Natufian ancestry is genuinely Western Eurasian B.) Eurasian uniparental markers in North/East Africa as early as ~22,000ybp.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nebuchadnezzar II View Post
    Except for Afanasievo and Yamnaya off-hand, I can't recall any genetic relationship that is direct, rather than proximal. It's a sort of trivial fact about ancient DNA.
    These proximal relationships Don't Tell us anything about the actual populations responsible for these relationships. They are just statistical relationships on a graph that people often read too much into. We can only interpret these relationships properly with appropriate samples understood within their historical and archaeological contexts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nebuchadnezzar II View Post
    Recalling your hypothesis, you think the Natufian-related signal in N/E Africa is not due to Eurasian introgression but rather shared NE African ancestry that spills over into the Near East. But this wouldn't work given: A.) The lions share of Natufian ancestry is genuinely Western Eurasian B.) Eurasian uniparental markers in North/East Africa as early as ~22,000ybp.
    Let's go with B first. As I recall, the uniparental markers in Natufians samples are also N. African. If Eurasian uniparental markers in Africa 22,000 ybp represent Eurasian introgression, what do you imagine African markers in Natufians mean? I don't doubt back and forth migration between NE Africa and SW Asia.

    Also, I don't doubt that the lion share of Natufian ancestry is Eurasian. I am just saying Natufian-like or other Eurasian-like ancestry in East Africa should not always be interpreted as Eurasian migration when it is not associated with Eurasian parental markers or the archaeology that suggests Eurasian migration.

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    I would also say West Eurasian ancestry is what it is regardless if it's in Africa during the Pleistocene. If Dzudzuana-like people migrated into North Africa as early as 25,000 years ago (earliest date for Iberomaurusian culture), then that part of Iberomaurusian ancestry is what we refer to as genetically West Eurasian. It's not a slight against Africa to recognize that North Africans have a strong connection to West Eurasia that goes back to at least Taforalt, if not earlier. We can also say that Iberomaurusians and Natufians also have deep African ancestry from their ANA ancestors.

    If Basal Eurasian ancestry also evolved in Africa and moved out into West Asia later, I'm perfectly happy calling West Eurasians a hybrid Western Crown Eurasian+"shallow African" superpopulation. Most people here don't have any problem recognizing potential post-OoA movements from Africa. We just want the structure of humanity to be properly disambiguated and not obfuscated by unqualified continental terms like "African" which covers everybody from Kabyles to San. Even SSA does too much work as a genetic term but it's at least commonly understood we're talking about moderns with majority deep African ancestry in that case.

    It also drives me crazy when I see even academic studies to this day lazily use African to mean SSA, Asian to mean East Asian, and European as a stand-in for West Eurasian:



    We should be getting away from this kind of unhelpful layman's terminology.
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  9. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michalis Moriopoulos View Post
    I would also say West Eurasian ancestry is what it is regardless if it's in Africa during the Pleistocene. If Dzudzuana-like people migrated into North Africa as early as 25,000 years ago (earliest date for Iberomaurusian culture), then that part of Iberomaurusian ancestry is what we refer to as genetically West Eurasian. It's not a slight against Africa to recognize that North Africans have a strong connection to West Eurasia that goes back to at least Taforalt, if not earlier. We can also say that Iberomaurusians and Natufians also have deep African ancestry from their ANA ancestors..

    If Basal Eurasian ancestry also evolved in Africa and moved out into West Asia later, I'm perfectly happy calling West Eurasians a hybrid Western Crown Eurasian+"shallow African" superpopulation. Most people here don't have any problem recognizing potential post-OoA movements from Africa. We just want the structure of humanity to be properly disambiguated and not obfuscated by unqualified continental terms like "African" which covers everybody from Kabyles to San. Even SSA does too much work as a generic term but it's at least commonly understood we're talking about moderns with majority deep African ancestry in that case.
    There is no ancient human culture or civilization (i.e., From the end of the neolithic onward) that can be traced back to 25,000 years ago or more. This is one of the reasons why I find it strange the inability to recognize the African provenance of Basal Eurasian by some on here from 80,000 years ago. North African-specific U lineages in N. Africa suggest a prehistoric Eurasian back-migration from around 30,000 years ago. If a lineage has remained in Africa for over 30,000 years, I am not sure why it can still be called Eurasian. Acknowledging its Western Eurasian provenance is not the same as saying that it remains Eurasian forever.

    But talking about the migration of Dzudzuana-like people in N. Africa 25,000 years ago makes no sense to me in the absence of aDNA from N. Africa of similar age or older. Do we always have to translate these relationships between randomly discovered aDNA samples on a graph into historical events? What is the material culture that you can tie to this Dzudzuana migration into Africa? Also, the Dzudzuana paper shows that around 27% of Dzudzuana is Mbuti. Do you relate that to African hunter-gatherer ancestors of Mbuti contributing to such ancestry?


    I am also wondering: How far back in time and how deep into Africa are you guys willing to date and locate these back-migrating Eurasians? Some on here already claim that all Africans have Eurasian admixture, which is a safe bet to make if you insist on describing every instance of Eurasian-like ancestry in Africa as simply Eurasian back-migration.

    What I have a problem with is the sloppy analysis that says Levant-Neolithic or Natufian-type ancestry in Africa is the result of Neolithic migrations from the Middle East. This type of ancestry has been found in Iberomaurasians before the neolithic period. The information that we have about the neolithic in the Egyptian/Sudanese Nile Valley and North Africa suggest at best multiple independent domestication events of cattle in centers throughout the Sahara desert in Libya and the Western Desert and at worst the incorporation of SW Asian domesticates by African hunter-gatherers who more or less remained hunter-gatherers who in some cases adopted plant cultivation thousands of years after adopting cattle. Neither of these scenarios allows for major neolithic migrations into the Nile Valley by Middle Easterners.

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    There are some studies related to Egypt and Nubia in the recent ISBA abstract book:

    https://isba9.sciencesconf.org/data/...ISBA9_2022.pdf

    Nothing blockbusting yet, but it will come.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mansamusa View Post
    There is no ancient human culture or civilization (i.e., From the end of the neolithic onward) that can be traced back to 25,000 years ago or more.
    Are you denying that Iberomaurusian sites have been dated as far back as 25,000 years ago? I'm not married to that figure (I don't really care at all frankly), but I'm pretty sure Iberomaurusians existed a long time before Taforalt.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mansamusa View Post
    This is one of the reasons why I find it strange the inability to recognize the African provenance of Basal Eurasian by some on here from 80,000 years ago.
    But no one is going to assume Basal Eurasian is African without samples, especially since the most commonly held view (even among academics) is that they were probably based in Arabia.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mansamusa View Post
    North African-specific U lineages in N. Africa suggest a prehistoric Eurasian back-migration from around 30,000 years ago. If a lineage has remained in Africa for over 30,000 years, I am not sure why it can still be called Eurasian.
    I can only speak about autosomal profiles.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mansamusa View Post
    But talking about the migration of Dzudzuana-like people in N. Africa 25,000 years ago makes no sense to me in the absence of aDNA from N. Africa of similar age or older.
    Like I said, that was under the assumption that Iberomaurusian profile had existed in the area long before Taforalt. It's possible that it's younger than 25kya ago. But it's definitely older than 15kya because that's when Taforalt existed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mansamusa View Post
    What is the material culture that you can tie to this Dzudzuana migration into Africa?
    I don't know-- who cares? That's for the archaeologists to figure out. Do you know the archaeological context behind Ust Ishim or Zlaty Kun? No? Good, nobody else does either because there isn't one. We're talking about Paleolithic samples here. It's not always obvious what culture they belonged to, though we can always make some educated guesses.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mansamusa View Post
    Also, the Dzudzuana paper shows that around 27% of Dzudzuana is Mbuti.
    Mbuti is standing in for anything deeper than Villabruna in that particular instance. Dzudzuana is modelled as part-Basal Eurasian more specifically elsewhere in the paper.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mansamusa View Post
    I am also wondering: How far back in time and how deep into Africa are you guys willing to date and locate these back-migrating Eurasians?
    I've been talking about West Eurasians, not Eurasians in general.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mansamusa View Post
    What I have a problem with is the sloppy analysis that says Levant-Neolithic or Natufian-type ancestry in Africa is the result of Neolithic migrations from the Middle East.
    It definitely is partly on genetic level, but not necessarily coming in during the Neolithic itself. But at some point ANF and Iran Neo have to get into Egypt before the Old Kingdom.
    Last edited by Michalis Moriopoulos; 10-16-2021 at 04:44 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michalis Moriopoulos View Post
    There are some studies related to Egypt and Nubia in the recent ISBA abstract book:

    https://isba9.sciencesconf.org/data/...ISBA9_2022.pdf

    Nothing blockbusting yet, but it will come.



    Are you denying that Iberomaurusian sites have been dated as far back as 25,000 years ago? I'm not married to that figure (I don't really care at all frankly), but I'm pretty sure Iberomaurusians existed a long time before Taforalt.
    I am saying that no ancient civilization or culture can be dated back to 20,000 years ago. It is unimportant to me if there were Eurasians in N. Africa 20,000 years ago. I am concerned about how the ethnogenesis of these historic civilizations, such as Ancient Egypt, are tied to these Eurasians.



    Quote Originally Posted by Michalis Moriopoulos View Post
    But no one is going to assume Basal Eurasian is African without samples, especially since the most commonly held view (even among academics) is that they were probably based in Arabia.
    By no one, you mean largely Western genetic bloggers and scientists, right? I mean everyone has a right to their bias. But constantly leaning on this bias as scientific proof is unconvincing. My point has always that the bias in favor of imaginary Eurasians that existed 80,000 years ago being responsible for Basal Eurasian is tied to Western insecurity about African ancestry in Eurasians that occurred over more than 30,000 to 40,000 years ago. If such prehistoric African ancestry causes so much unease among modern Europeans, that worries me. How objective can Western science or history actually be regarding Africa?

    And since when did people on here care about having appropriate aDNA samples to come up with elaborate historical theories?


    Quote Originally Posted by Michalis Moriopoulos View Post
    I can only speak about autosomal profiles.



    Like I said, that was under the assumption that Iberomaurusian profile had existed in the area long before Taforalt. It's possible that it's younger than 25kya ago. But it's definitely older than 15kya because that's when Taforalt existed.



    I don't know-- who cares? That's for the archaeologists to figure out. Do you know the archaeological context behind Ust Ishim or Zlaty Kun? No? Good, nobody else does either because there isn't one. We're talking about Paleolithic samples here. It's not always obvious what culture they belonged to, though we can always make some educated guesses.
    I am saying there is nothing plausible about relating Paleolithic Caucasus populations to specific N. African cultures. These are just statistical relationships among randomly discovered samples in a graph, as long as we do not have corresponding samples from SW ASIA and N. Africa to properly understand the nature of these relationships.



    Quote Originally Posted by Michalis Moriopoulos View Post
    Mbuti is standing in for anything deeper than Villabruna in that particular instance. Dzudzuana is modelled as part-Basal Eurasian more specifically elsewhere in the paper.
    In other words, you think it's absurd to equate Mbuti-like ancestry in Dzudzuana with actual African migrations, but you equate Dzudzuana-like ancestry in N. Africa with actual Eurasian migrations into N. Africa?



    Quote Originally Posted by Michalis Moriopoulos View Post
    It definitely is partly on genetic level, but not necessarily coming in during the Neolithic itself. But at some point ANF and Iran Neo have to get into Egypt before the Old Kingdom.
    So you are admitting that Levant Neolithic in Egypt may not be traced back to Eurasian migrations from the Levant during the neolithic but that Iran and Anatolian Neolithic could be definitely traced back to SW. Eurasian-DNA mediated Anatolia and Iranian ancestry during the Neolithic? With all due respect, that sounds like a convoluted mess.

    You do realize this is a change from the initial claims related to Abusir DNA. One side argued that the Eurasian ancestry in Abusir was largely Hyksos-mediated. The other side argued that it was proof that Ancient Egypt was established by Levant migrants who introduced the neolithic in Ancient Egypt.
    Last edited by Mansamusa; 10-16-2021 at 06:41 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mansamusa View Post
    I am saying that no ancient civilization or culture can be dated back to 20,000 years ago.
    There are plenty of archaeological cultures that date back to 20,000 years ago. Iberomaurusian is one such industry. Obviously there were no civilizations that far back.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mansamusa View Post
    It is unimportant to me if there were Eurasians in N. Africa 20,000 years ago.
    You're on a genetics forum. Don't you think it should be important to you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mansamusa View Post
    By no one, you mean largely Western genetic bloggers and scientists, right? I mean everyone has a right to their bias. But constantly leaning on this bias as scientific proof is unconvincing.
    Nobody claimed to have proof that Basal Eurasians originated in Arabia, but it is the favored theory at the moment:

    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1....432678v1.full

    And it doesn't matter to me what the background of bloggers or scientists is. I care about the quality of their ideas, not who they are as people. It makes no difference to me at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mansamusa View Post
    My point has always that the bias in favor of imaginary Eurasians that existed 80,000 years ago being responsible for Basal Eurasian is tied to Western insecurity about African ancestry in Eurasians that occurred over more than 30,000 to 40,000 years ago. If such prehistoric African ancestry causes so much unease among modern Europeans, that worries me. How objective can Western science or history actually be regarding Africa?
    Science is the only game in town. And I'm sure all those suspicious scientists working at Reichlab, Max Planck, etc. absolutely recoil at the very idea of Europeans having African ancestry, right? What decade are you living in, Mansa?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mansamusa View Post
    In other words, you think it's absurd to equate Mbuti-like ancestry in Dzudzuana with actual African migrations, but you equate Dzudzuana-like ancestry in N. Africa with actual Eurasian migrations into N. Africa?
    What I think is absurd is not understanding what the authors were doing when using Mbuti in that study. It's clearly being used as a proxy for deep ancestry relative to something else being modelled.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mansamusa View Post
    So you are admitting that Levant Neolithic in Egypt may not be traced back to Eurasian migrations from the Levant during the neolithic but that Iran and Anatolian Neolithic could be definitely traced back to SW. Eurasian-DNA mediated Anatolia and Iranian ancestry during the Neolithic? With all due respect, that sounds like a convoluted mess.
    My contention is that ANF and Iran Neo arrived in Egypt at some point before the Old Kingdom (i.e., in predynastic times). I haven't committed to a specific time period like the Neolithic or Chalcolithic, though I think the latter is definitely the case for the Iran Neo component at the very least.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mansamusa View Post
    You do realize this is a change from the initial claims related to Abusir DNA. One side argued that the Eurasian ancestry in Abusir was largely Hyksos-mediated. The other side argued that it was proof that Ancient Egypt was established by Levant migrants who introduced the neolithic in Ancient Egypt.
    This is what has been claimed by me:

    - Egyptians were West Eurasian during the Old Kingdom and beyond. They will have ANF and Iran Neo ancestry.
    - Gene flow from West Asians arrived into Egypt after the Old Kingdom, increasing ANF and Iran Neo ancestry further.
    - Abusir represents an Egyptian profile that existed well before the Hellenistic era, being seen even in Beirut III Iron Age outliers.
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    I wonder when we will have ancient Peninsular Arabian samples including hunter gatherers.
    This might explain a lot of mysteries.
    All the ‘Levant’ stuff might actually be ancient Peninsular Arabian by origin.

    I am starting to think the origin of Natufian component is in Peninsular Arabia.
    These Natufian-like HG might had migrated to the North and to the West into Africa.
    Will we know much more with ancient Peninsular Arabian samples? And will eventually know more about Basal Eurasian?
    The whole genetic history of ancient Peninsular Arabia is a mysterie.
    It makes more sense to me to be the real root of Natufian-like people.
    The modern people of Peninsular Arabia are the most Natufian of all people in the world.
    Last edited by Ylang-Ylang; 10-16-2021 at 09:25 AM.

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