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Thread: Faces of Three Ancient Egyptians Brought to Life Using 2,000-Year-Old DNA

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by taharqa View Post
    Does this make any sense to you?
    Apparently according to 'Mansamusa' what matters is not what people were like genetically but where they happened to be located geographically or whether they were 'indigenous' to that area. So if people were genetically similar to Levantines but were living in the Nile Valley and were 'indigenous' to that area then we can call them 'African' and through the magic of words and imagination they magically become similar to people like 'mansamusa' instead.

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  3. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mansamusa View Post
    I have no idea what you mean by extreme differentiation. I am simply pointing out the naivete of people on this forum expecting aDNA from an ancient Macedonian living in Ancient Egypt to be representative of Ancient Egypt as a whole.
    Hold up, you think these guys in the reconstruction were Macedonian? You must be referring to something else here because there is no way you can mean that.

    You can expect historical AEs to cluster closest to ancient Levantines (of different stripes) on record, Arabians, and modern Egyptians. Make of that what you will, but the writing is on the wall here. We've already heard leaks about Old Kingdom samples. You can give them whatever name you like-- they're always going to be closer to ancient Levantines in the aDNA record than they are to, say, something very differentiated (like a Somali). It's time to accept this inevitability with grace.
    Last edited by Michalis Moriopoulos; 10-05-2021 at 03:55 PM.
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  5. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michalis Moriopoulos View Post
    Hold up, you think these guys in the reconstruction were Macedonian? You must be referring to something else here because there is no way you can mean that.

    You can expect historical AEs to cluster closest to ancient Levantines (of different stripes) on record, Arabians, and modern Egyptians. Make of that what you will, but the writing is on the wall here. We've already heard leaks about Old Kingdom samples. You can give them whatever name you like-- they're always going to be closer to ancient Levantines in the aDNA record than they are to, say, something very differentiated (like a Somali). It's time to accept this inevitability with grace.
    JK2888 is estimated to be from 97 to 2 BC. Expressing surprise that such a sample could be Greek is like being surprised that a modern American is White and not Native American. What else would he be besides Greek or Roman when that period falls within Ptolemaic rule? Ancient Egypt as a civilization was already dead for a few hundred years.

    Why are you guys so focussed with pairing modern-day SSA samples like Somali or Yoruba with ancient DNA from the Levant when comparing Egyptian affinity with Africans versus SW Eurasians? How is that even an appropriate methodology? The only appropriate methodology would be using ancient African samples located in the Eastern and Western deserts of Egypt from ancient African cultures known to be related or associated with AEs. We already know that there is a genetic cline extending from the Nile Valley into the Levant as a result of African migration into the Levant in prehistoric periods. The idea that Ancient Egyptian samples clustering with available aDNA samples from the Levant is some kind of victory is puzzling as hell to me. Like what does that in and of itself prove? Are you saying that Ancient Egypt was established by people from the Levant? Because the rational interpretation of this relationship would be common prehistoric ancestry between the Levant and the Nile Valley as a result of migration from the Nile Valley, as attested by traditional archaeology.
    Last edited by Mansamusa; 10-05-2021 at 04:36 PM.

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  7. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mansamusa View Post
    JK2888 is estimated to be from 97 to 2 BC. Expressing surprise that such a sample could be Greek is like being surprised that a modern American is White and not Native American. What else would he be besides Greek or Roman when that period falls within Ptolemaic rule? Ancient Egypt as a civilization was already dead for a few hundred years.
    Sure, it's not impossible that they were ethnically Greek because Greeks Hellenized parts of the Near East and North Africa (like Cyrenaica), but genetically they are clearly descended of the Egyptians who were already there. What you said implied to me you thought they were of recent Macedonian descent, which would be ridiculous.

    By the way, these samples are also very similar to the Levant Beirut III outliers who were without a doubt Egyptians. This shows Hellenistic Egypt had continuity with Iron Age Egyptians.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mansamusa View Post
    Why are you guys so focussed with pairing modern-day SSA samples like Somali or Yoruba with ancient DNA from the Levant when comparing Egyptian affinity with Africans versus SW Eurasians?
    Because Nubian/Beja/Horner-like is the alternative that is proposed most often for what the ancient Egyptians were like genetically. And you know what quarters this idea circulates in the most.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mansamusa View Post
    The only appropriate methodology would be using ancient African samples located in the Eastern and Western deserts of Egypt from ancient African cultures known to be related or associated with AEs.
    By all means. But if these ancient African desert people clustered closest to ancient Levantines, would you admit that?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mansamusa View Post
    We already know that there is a genetic cline extending from the Nile Valley into the Levant as a result of African migration into the Levant in prehistoric periods. The idea that Ancient Egyptian samples clustering with available aDNA samples from the Levant is some kind of victory is puzzling as hell to me. Like what does that in and of itself prove? Are you saying that Ancient Egypt was established by people from the Levant? Because the rational interpretation of this relationship would be common prehistoric ancestry between the Levant and the Nile Valley as a result of migration from the Nile Valley, as attested by traditional archaeology.
    You can characterize the variation however you like, but that's not going to change the fact that AEs are going to be most closely related to Levantines already in the aDNA record. Calling them African is fine but it's the vaguest thing you could possibly call them and does nothing to define the structure that exists among them, which is the whole point of this forum. Remember, we're interested in genetic differences here. This isn't a geography forum. Nobody cares that extremely highly differentiated groups lived on the same continent anymore than anyone cares that AASI, Tianyuan, Jomon, and Anatolian farmers all lived in Asia.

    So let me make it clear: I don't care if you want to call these people African. Great. But I do care if you try to use that to minimize the differences that exist among Africans and to downplay the connections some Africans (read: Egyptians) have to West Eurasians living right next door in West Asia. Simple as that.
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  9. #25
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    It's probably fruitless for me to continue debating Mansa (as I've done many times before) about Egypt before more samples come out because this is always an explosive issue, so I'll just make my position as clear as I can make it and leave it at that: AEs were Northeast Africans, yes, but that's just geography. What we care about here is what populations they were like genetically. We should expect the AEs to cluster closest to ancient Levantines already in the DNA record (from Natufians onward). Overall, AEs should cluster closer to Jordanians than to Ethiopians. It seems very likely something happened in the Middle Ages to increase SSA ancestry in Egypt (including Copts) relative to their ancient forebears. I would speculate this is traceable to gene flow coming from Orthodox Christian groups like pre-Islamic Nubians, followed by the Arab slave trade and cosmopolitanism during the Islamic era.

    I think that just about covers it, and let me just say these reconstructions are awesome. We are indeed looking into the faces of ancient Egyptians. Maybe Brandon can draw us some pictures featuring them some day.
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  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mansamusa View Post
    JK2888 is estimated to be from 97 to 2 BC. Expressing surprise that such a sample could be Greek is like being surprised that a modern American is White and not Native American. What else would he be besides Greek or Roman when that period falls within Ptolemaic rule?
    Well he could be Egyptian. You know the Greeks and Romans didn't replace the population, right?

    JK2888 has E1b1b-V22 and mtDNA U6a2 ... not exactly Greek or Roman lineages. Arguably he has the most North African parental lineages of the three.

    Following your analogy, this would be like finding a white American with Native American paternal and maternal lineages.

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  13. #27
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    When we exclude the Taforalt component in models, ancient Egyptian samples have SSA ranging from 3.8 to 6%, while in modern Egyptians on average that component reaches 14.6%.
    [1] "distance%=3.2865"

    Ajeje Brazorf

    EEF,54.6
    CHG,14.2
    MIDDLE_EAST,10.2
    IRAN_N,8.8
    ANE,6.4
    WHG,4.2
    TAFORALT,1.6

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  15. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ajeje Brazorf View Post
    When we exclude the Taforalt component in models, ancient Egyptian samples have SSA ranging from 3.8 to 6%, while in modern Egyptians on average that component reaches 14.6%.
    We can easily find modern egyptians (especially among copts) with SSA ranging between 3.8% - 6%

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  17. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michalis Moriopoulos View Post
    I don't know what you realistically expect is going to happen in this space, but if I were you I'd be preparing myself for the strong possibility that these guys will be representative of their period and will also be similar to people from earlier periods, although not exactly the same. I predict the difference between Old Kingdom Egyptians and post-Hyksos Egyptians will be similar to the difference between Mycenaeans and Hellenistic Greeks-- not identical but still in the same class more or less. Any expectation of extreme differentiation between pre and post-Hyksos Egyptians is not realistic; spare yourself the disappointment now, trust me.
    In my opinion crushing disappointments are the BEST part of this space.
    Running with some long hypothesis based on cultural, ethnographic, linguistic etc data and experiencing a forced reinterpretation in light of genetic data is what makes things "Spicy".
    I am laughing so hard right now but i am dead serious. LOL.
    I think folks should go on record saying what they think and then seeing their dreams shattered or supported.
    Last edited by beyoku; 10-05-2021 at 07:20 PM.

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  19. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Philjames View Post
    So an indigenous African population native to the Nile Valley and surrounding Sahara deserts that was genetically like people from the Levant/Eurasia?
    Sure, why not?

    By they way, someone did this.

    They done done it.jpg
    Last edited by beyoku; 10-05-2021 at 07:24 PM.

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