50% replacement in GB Patterson et al in review

[ffoucart]

From a talk by David Reich (july 21):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXsNKNZtdM0

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50% replacement in LBA in GB (Patterson et al in review)

Most likely migration of Celts, don't you think?

[ramz]

Do you mean Celts were not those who had steppe ancestry?

[ffoucart]

Do you Celts were not those who had steppe ancestry?

I am not sure if I understand you. But Celts were an IA culture/civilisation, not a Late Neolithic/Eneolithic one. As explained in the vid, Steppe ancestry arrived in Britain with Bell Beakers, 4500 years ago, with a 90% replacement of the previous population (European Farmers).

What Reich is saying, is that there was another big replacement at the end of the Bronze Age (around 900 BC), with a 50% replacement of the population (made of BBs descendants). The paper is still in review, so will be published in the next months (end of 2021? 2022?).

From what we have, even if there was a big replacement 2900 years ago, the new population was not very different from the locals (same components), so probably were also descendants of BBs, but from another European region.

Could be Celts or Proto-Celts (Iron Age is more recent in Britain).

BBs probably spoke a PIE dialect, which evolved in Proto-Italo-Celtic, and splited between different languages (much are unknown as gone extinct before Celtic expansion).

[LesPoilus]

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[ramz]

I am not sure if I understand you. But Celts were an IA culture/civilisation, not a Late Neolithic/Eneolithic one. As explained in the vid, Steppe ancestry arrived in Britain with Bell Beakers, 4500 years ago, with a 90% replacement of the previous population (European Farmers).

What Reich is saying, is that there was another big replacement at the end of the Bronze Age (around 900 BC), with a 50% replacement of the population (made of BBs descendants). The paper is still in review, so will be published in the next months (end of 2021? 2022?).

From what we have, even if there was a big replacement 2900 years ago, the new population was not very different from the locals (same components), so probably were also descendants of BBs, but from another European region.

Could be Celts or Proto-Celts (Iron Age is more recent in Britain).

BBs probably spoke a PIE dialect, which evolved in Proto-Italo-Celtic, and splited between different languages (much are unknown as gone extinct before Celtic expansion).

I don't know what you mean by Proto-Italo-Celtic, do you mean some people who spoke Proto-Italo-Celtic (!!) migrated to Italo-Celtic lands and then some other people who spoke Proto-Italic and Proto-Celtic languages migrated to these lands? For what reason we shouldn't consider the first people as non-Indo-European?

[ffoucart]

I don't know what you mean by Proto-Italo-Celtic, do you mean some people who spoke Proto-Italo-Celtic (!!) migrated to Italo-Celtic lands and then some other people who spoke Proto-Italic and Proto-Celtic languages migrated to these lands? For what reason we shouldn't consider the first people as non-Indo-European?

I don’t understand.

If, like it does seem, Corded Ware spoken late PIE, so does sub cultures from CW, like Single Graves, from which BBs came. It does mean that BBs spoke late PIE or a dialect of Late PIE. Between the beginning of CW and the end of BBs, we have 1000 years, enough for dialectisation to take place. The last BBs spoke probably something close to a proto italo celtic language. Given the uniformity of BBs, they probably spoke the same language. When BBs disappeared, there was probably a split between different branches of Italo-Celtic, with 2 majors giving rise 1000 years later to Celtic and Italic languages.

There was probably a dialect continuum in a large part of Western Europe till Roman Conquest.

[ramz]

You know David Reich is the same person who believes "location of the population that first spoke an Indo-European language was south of the Caucasus Mountains, perhaps in present-day Iran or Armenia."

[Riverman]

Its the right timing for Celts, let's wait for the paper and data.
If this is not the Celtic spread, expect another expansion some centuries later...

[ffoucart]

You know David Reich is the same person who believes "location of the population that first spoke an Indo-European language was south of the Caucasus Mountains, perhaps in present-day Iran or Armenia."

Nobody's perfect.

In fact, he switched on this after some results in Anatolia (without Steppe migration in the IVth millenium). Since Wang et al, I think his views have changed a bit.

Its the right timing for Celts, let's wait for the paper and data.
If this is not the Celtic spread, expect another expansion some centuries later...

Or a Celtic dialect continuum existed since LBA, and a "Standart Celtic" emerged with Hallstatt and La Tène and imposed itself on other dialects. Difficult to know anyway.

[Riverman]

Or a Celtic dialect continuum existed since LBA, and a "Standart Celtic" emerged with Hallstatt and La Tène and imposed itself on other dialects. Difficult to know anyway.

We don't know for sure, but its clear it can't be earlier than Western Urnfield and no later than La Tene for most of the British Isles. Some pockets might have been non-Celtic up to more recent times. Nobody really knows.
Even Western Urnfield and Western Hallstatt were not all Celtic, but these cultures were the first spreaders, no earlier, which fits into EIA and most of the linguistic evidence which is absolutely not in favour of anything before the LBA.