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Thread: 50% replacement in GB Patterson et al in review

  1. #281
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    Quote Originally Posted by ffoucart View Post
    Do you think that Bavaria and Netherlands did have the same history, with the same populations, even 3000 years ago or more?

    Anyway, that isn’t really the point. There is limited continuity since BA, even in Netherlands. Using modern local populations to extrapolate what the population was 3000 or 4000 years has a limited interest, since most likely inaccurate in most cases.

    You pointed to Franks not from Jutland. True. But it doesn’t mean they didn’t replace Belgo-roman population in larges areas.
    No not at all what I do believe is that Tumulus/ Urnfield influx came from the Northern Alps/ Southern Germany to NW Europe. Connected by the Rhine and Ems (connected with the Weser) as water road. And over land via the Tin way (Zinnweg) and Rennsteig. The richest Tumulus in Drouwen Drenthe was by the way connected with the source of the Hunze, that connected it with the Wadden Sea/ North Sea (and also amber find along the island Ameland and Schiermonnikoog).

    My point with the Franks is that it were people that had in genetic sense no or loose connection with the Germanics from Schleswig (aka Anglo-Saxons), they came from the Rhineland and Salland (part of the Lower Rhine/ Ems Urnfield complex).

    And what I did was not so much extrapolate as 'intrapolate'. I suppose that before the Germanic influx there was a population in the NE Dutch that stood in line of "LBA" population. Before the Germanic spread there is NO known influx of other people (no evidence).

    So that's way I suppose that the current population of the NE Netherlands is "roughly" Germanic (Anglo-Saxon influx) with a "LBA" substrate. In the west coast of Friesland this substrate is lower because this was (almost) empty land in the fourth century. In the NE Netherlands (=the Lower Rhine/ Emsland Urnfield complex) this dip before the Germanic influx was less (no signs of discontinuity or abandoned villages).

    This LBA substrate shows affinity with the Belgae, Welsh, Orkney etc.
    Last edited by Finn; 10-17-2021 at 03:53 PM.

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  3. #282
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    Quote Originally Posted by ffoucart View Post
    Not too sure about it.

    If Urnfield men replaced local men, at least at the highest social level, I am far from sure it was the result of « friendly relations ». If it happened, it is very likely that locals didn’t get the choice.

    We will see when we could have access to some Urnfield samples (probably from the fringes of their territory, where they less likely to have been cremated). But I would not be surprised if they did have a genetic impact.

    Quite simple the Urnfield warriors were the new rulers. More chances of reproduction and a higher survival rate. Over hundred of years this makes the difference (succes of some R1b U106 lines?).

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  5. #283
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    England Scotland Ireland Germany Bayern Italy Two Sicilies France
    Quote Originally Posted by anglesqueville View Post
    The hat tip is in fact to Sims-Williams. Add his precious book about Celtic toponymy ("Ancient Celtic Placenames in Europe and Asia Minor", Blackwell. Unfortunately I'm not aware of any electronic copy. You have to buy it).
    Indeed!

    Here’s a slightly truncated review of his book but I think their point is made.

    https://www.cambridge.org/core/journ...2BAB2B58E73968
    Paper Trail: 42.25% English, 31.25% Scottish, 12.5% Irish, 6.25% German, 6.25% Sicilian & 1.5% French. Or: 86% British Isles, 6.25% German, 6.25% Sicilian & 1.5% French.
    LDNA(c): 86.3% British Isles (48.6% English, 37.7% Scottish & Irish), 7.8% NW Germanic, 5.9% Europe South (Aegean 3.4%, Tuscany 1.3%, Sardinia 1.1%)
    BigY 700: I1-Z140 >F2642 >Y1966 >Y3649 >A13241 >Y3647 >A13248 (circa 540 AD) >FT81015 (circa 1120 AD) >A13243 (circa 1620 AD) >FT80854 (circa 1700 AD).

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  7. #284
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    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    I am in no way saying that no urnfield involved a change of hegemony and language but it’s already clear that it very often didn’t and was often the result of a friendly network. I do believe genes also tend to travel among friendly networks but I think the main differentiation between an invasion and an intensive acculturation by friendly networking will be that the yDNA won’t shift much in the latter. That’s not to say NO males move in networks. Craftsmen and others may well and some foster children from other areas of the network might never make it home (but if so they should be no older than 16/17).

    I clearly think it did. Tumulus later Urnfield warriors set the tone. They were the people with the first swords in NW Europe and dominated the scene.....And I guess a 'Dionysian-model' was friendly, I guess rather blood drunk....
    Last edited by Finn; 10-17-2021 at 03:57 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    Quite simple the Urnfield warriors were the new rulers. More chances of reproduction and a higher survival rate. Over hundred of years this makes the difference (succes of some R1b U106 lines?).
    At least for the Carpathian-Balkan region, we can say they were not just the new rulers, but this was an organised colonisation event which replaced a large portion of the local population:

    We are therefore talking about large numbers of people, from a sizeable area around Cornes¸ti, who
    would have taken part in the site’s construction. This brings with it the need to consider
    motivation, not to speak of logistics.
    The three radiocarbon dates, along with the suggested pottery dating in the Late Bronze
    Age, indicate construction and use of the rampart of Enclosure I in the centuries around
    3000 BP. Unfortunately the calibration curve is relatively flat at this period, which means
    that there is a sizeable potential spread of calendar dates, from 1400 to 1000 cal BC or even
    wider.
    Suciu de Sus and Lapus represent elite burials, of kings or at least princes form the Gava/Channelled Ware people in the wider region, probably of transregional importance:
    It is noticeable how many archaeological phenomena have produced radiocarbon dates
    at just this period. This was, for instance, the time when the dates for the great tumuli of
    the Suciu de Sus culture at L˘apus¸ in the Maramures¸ fall (Metzner-Nebelsick et al. 2010;
    C. Metzner-Nebelsick pers. comm.), and many other phenomena across Europe have been
    radiocarbon dated close to 3000 BP. Wolfgang Kimmig suggested many years ago that the
    start of theUrnfield period could be connected with far-reaching movements of people across
    the whole of Southern and Central Europe (Kimmig 1964), a theory that has never been
    refuted and continues to be attractive in many ways
    . Although it would be too simplistic
    to see a straight correlation between the new burial rite of cremation, and the rise of major
    fortifications, there are certainly attractive possibilities to explore in this general field.
    https://www.researchgate.net/publica...Romanian_Banat

    The Carpathian zone was prototypical, we don't have to expect the same everywhere, but a replacement of the warrior elite is the mininum which can be associated with the spread of the cultural package in most regions, unless they were allies early on. But even then, the gene flow and influence is likely to have taken place.

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    I am in no way saying that no urnfield involved a change of hegemony and language but it’s already clear that it very often didn’t and was often the result of a friendly network. I do believe genes also tend to travel among friendly networks but I think the main differentiation between an invasion and an intensive acculturation by friendly networking will be that the yDNA won’t shift much in the latter. That’s not to say NO males move in networks. Craftsmen and others may well and some foster children from other areas of the network might never make it home (but if so they should be no older than 16/17).

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  13. #287
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    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    I am in no way saying that no urnfield involved a change of hegemony and language but it’s already clear that it very often didn’t and was often the result of a friendly network. I do believe genes also tend to travel among friendly networks but I think the main differentiation between an invasion and an intensive acculturation by friendly networking will be that the yDNA won’t shift much in the latter. That’s not to say NO males move in networks. Craftsmen and others may well and some foster children from other areas of the network might never make it home (but if so they should be no older than 16/17).
    We have friendly networks most likely in Italy, or across some Tumulus culture related networks through which the new religion and latest developments sometimes moved freely. Not always, because at some point the different groups seem to have been at war, first trade wars, than real wars with massive armies getting mustered. That's when the flow of ressources to the West and North not collapsed, but was slowing down quite a lot, with weared down and bad quality swords in Germany and Scandinavia increasing, while in the Carpathians huge hoards being buried with tons of weapons. Obviously they preferred to sacrifice their production to the gods instead of selling them to their usual customers. This, in all likelihood, points to a major, prolonged conflict of the three main Urnfield centres (Denmark, Germany and Pannonia-Carpathians).
    And its not by chance that exactly in this period of time things escalate. Tollense being just one of many incidents, but of the others we just have no archaeological lucky case, even though the battles seem to have been even far bigger actually, and Tollense was, in any case, already among the bigger ones for the previous time period. Things scaled up, massively.

    Now again: To the West, they were breaking into completely foreign territory, separated by more than 1.000 years of different cultural trajectories, different networks and ideologies, most likely languages as well. That was a conquest. We will see how much of it will be replacement in Britain - Britain might have really being a chain event from the South, where they landed, rolling things up with little initial impact. But France? Look how dotted it is with typical burial and swords finds. France will be key in seeing how the Western Urnfielders rolled the whole Atlantic system up, just like the Southern and South Eastern did the same with the Balkans, Aegeans and whole East Mediterranean in this global scale chain event.
    Egypt barely made it, but some Atlantic groups which were centuries behind should have stand a chance and just adopted all the cultural innovations from friendly neighbours, from which they were separated for 1.000 of years?

    The Urnfield princes and chiefs tried to keep the technological innovations secret, unless they were close allies it seems and set up new workshops for them. This is clear if looking at Naue II and similar swords, spearheads and finally the early iron swords. They were top secret, military and trade secrets, protected by huge fortresses with hundreds of elite warriors.
    They build whole towns from scratch into hostile territory and massacred or displaced the locals.
    And the same is visible in parts of Italy as well as in the Balkans.

    France will just show that genetically similar, but culturally very different people will replace each other. The main genetic difference will be a minor "more exotic" input from Central Europe, which came with the first elites and specialists from the Pannonian-Carpathian and Italian sphere. The rest will be mostly Bell Beaker derived on both sides. That's the whole mystery and why more data being needed to prove it. Too similar people genetically, but culturally very different. Because the Lech people were mostly Bell Beakers derived, for example, but had a completely different evolution since then, than those sitting on the Atlantic fringe.
    Last edited by Riverman; 10-17-2021 at 04:36 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    At least for the Carpathian-Balkan region, we can say they were not just the new rulers, but this was an organised colonisation event which replaced a large portion of the local population:



    Suciu de Sus and Lapus represent elite burials, of kings or at least princes form the Gava/Channelled Ware people in the wider region, probably of transregional importance:


    https://www.researchgate.net/publica...Romanian_Banat

    The Carpathian zone was prototypical, we don't have to expect the same everywhere, but a replacement of the warrior elite is the mininum which can be associated with the spread of the cultural package in most regions, unless they were allies early on. But even then, the gene flow and influence is likely to have taken place.
    That's my impression for NW Europe too....sharp as their razors (Arnoldussen):

    The Drouwen Sögel-Wohlde grave illustrates that in the 16th century, the northern Netherlands were firmly integrated into the Nordic (or north-German? Thrane 2001: 555) network in which such graves were current.25 Vandkilde (2014: 614; 621) argues that such graves reflect male warrior identities that represent the upper hierarchy of pan-European networks of cultural exchange, driven in part by the novelty of the sword (cf. Fontijn 2001: 228-229).
    I guess that the indigenous people, must have experienced it as "extravaganza" hitherto unknown to them.... JJ Butler:

    In the year 1927, A.E. van Giffen (1930, I: pp. 84-93; II: Abb. 78; cf. Butler, 1971, with further references) excavated the battered fragment of a prehistoric burial mound at Drouwen, and uncovered one of the richest Early Bronze Age graves ever found on the North European plain (fig. 16a- c). For richer Early Bronze Age burials we must go as far as the Fürstengräber of the Saale valley in Saxo-Thuringia, or the equally pretentious tumuli on the western end of the Armorican peninsula, or the richest of the chiefly graves of Wessex.

    By luck, the central inhumation burial under the Drouwen tumulus was still almost entirely undisturbed when van Giffen got there. He found, in a rectangular pit under a four-post mortuary house, a warrior’s grave, presumably that of a chiefly person. None of his grave goods - the sword with decorated blade; the flanged axe (geknickte Randbeil); the set of finely worked flint arrowheads; the polished whetstone; the flint strike-a-light; the coiled-wire gold earrings - are at all likely to be of local manufacture; they are all rare objects in the Netherands. Probably the warrior himself came from a distance; though it is of course possible that he was a local figure who had acquired exotic accoutrements. Almost all the items have parallels in the ‘Sögel’ (or ‘Sögel-Wohlde’) group of Early Bronze Age male burials, extending across Northwest Germany to Jutland and Mecklenburg and southward to Hessen, though none of them contain so much of them all together. But, if the Drouwen warrior’s grave goods are exotic, the fact that he was buried there under a monumental tumulus has shown that the tumulus was surrounded by a ring-ditch some 30 metres in diameter argues that in life he must have had local authority.
    (Butler thought this grave was in EBA but it was in MBA, based on the timing of his razor etc).

    This has a connection with warbands, with Koryos, or Herjan (wiki)
    The kóryos probably drove people not protected by the Indo-European social umbrella to move under it in order to obtain safety or restitution from thieving and raiding. They could therefore have served as an incentive for the recruitment of outsiders into social positions that offered vertical mobility, horizontal reciprocity, and the possibility of immortality through praise poetry, made more attractive by generosity at patron-sponsored public feasts.
    Indeed Dionysian.....
    Last edited by Finn; 10-17-2021 at 07:24 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    That's my impression for NW Europe too....sharp as their razors (Arnoldussen):

    I guess that the indigenous people, must have experienced it as "extravaganza" hitherto unknown to them.... JJ Butler:

    (Butler thought this grave was in EBA but it was in MBA, based on the timing of his razor etc).
    There is another aspect of this, namely that we know from later depictions in Hallstatt that a lot of the Hallstatt people, especially elites, were completely shaven and hair free, on the head and on the face. That the most common metal goods they carried into the underworld, in large parts of the Urnfield sphere, were after the sword razors and tweezers speaks for itself. Its therefore no coincidence that the Hallstatt groups with some of the strongest Urnfield traditions of all were still clean shaven and bald with Mediterranean-like garment:


    And shortly before their massive expansion, the Channelled Ware people transitioned from warbands dominated by axes to armies equipped with spears and shields, with the elites, presumably many on horseback, with cutting swords (like Naue II). Again something which survives into Hallstatt, note this hoplite style warriors and how different they are from later La Tene ones:

    All clean shaven again. Same for most of the early Italic and Etruscan warriors, which were mostly clean shaven and used the same weaponry in the early period.

    Trousers, animal art and heavy cavalry all came much later to the Celts and Germanics, with Thraco-Scythians and Scythians directly, transforming the Celtic tribes into the classical La Tene Celtic people.

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    How beautiful is this foot and a half long spearhead from southern England c.1200-1000BC2C2CBA92-7E0F-49CC-88C6-9961549E09B9.jpeg

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