Page 1 of 49 12311 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 490

Thread: 50% replacement in GB Patterson et al in review

  1. #1
    Registered Users
    Posts
    3,467
    Sex
    Location
    French Flanders
    Ethnicity
    Northwestern European
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b L21>DF13
    mtDNA (M)
    K1a29a

    France Belgium Flanders Wallonia Occitania France Bretagne

    50% replacement in GB Patterson et al in review

    From a talk by David Reich (july 21):
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXsNKNZtdM0

    Capture.JPG
    Capture2.JPG

    50% replacement in LBA in GB (Patterson et al in review)

    Most likely migration of Celts, don't you think?
    Last edited by ffoucart; 10-12-2021 at 08:22 AM.

  2. The Following 29 Users Say Thank You to ffoucart For This Useful Post:

     Alain (10-12-2021),  Archetype0ne (10-13-2021),  beyoku (10-12-2021),  CGPF (10-12-2021),  CopperAxe (10-12-2021),  Cunobelinus_T (10-12-2021),  Finn (10-12-2021),  Hando (10-12-2021),  Helgenes50 (10-12-2021),  homunculus (10-12-2021),  J1 DYS388=13 (10-12-2021),  Jessie (10-14-2021),  JMcB (10-12-2021),  JoeyP37 (10-12-2021),  Kelso (10-12-2021),  Kopfjger (10-12-2021),  LesPoilus (10-12-2021),  MitchellSince1893 (10-12-2021),  Nas (10-12-2021),  Olymp (10-13-2021),  parasar (10-13-2021),  pmokeefe (10-13-2021),  Psynome (10-12-2021),  Riverman (10-12-2021),  Ruderico (10-17-2021),  [email protected] (10-20-2021),  sheepslayer (10-12-2021),  sktibo (10-17-2021),  Tomenable (10-12-2021)

  3. #2
    Do you mean Celts were not those who had steppe ancestry?
    Last edited by ramz; 10-12-2021 at 10:20 AM.

  4. #3
    Registered Users
    Posts
    3,467
    Sex
    Location
    French Flanders
    Ethnicity
    Northwestern European
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b L21>DF13
    mtDNA (M)
    K1a29a

    France Belgium Flanders Wallonia Occitania France Bretagne
    Quote Originally Posted by ramz View Post
    Do you Celts were not those who had steppe ancestry?
    I am not sure if I understand you. But Celts were an IA culture/civilisation, not a Late Neolithic/Eneolithic one. As explained in the vid, Steppe ancestry arrived in Britain with Bell Beakers, 4500 years ago, with a 90% replacement of the previous population (European Farmers).

    What Reich is saying, is that there was another big replacement at the end of the Bronze Age (around 900 BC), with a 50% replacement of the population (made of BBs descendants). The paper is still in review, so will be published in the next months (end of 2021? 2022?).

    From what we have, even if there was a big replacement 2900 years ago, the new population was not very different from the locals (same components), so probably were also descendants of BBs, but from another European region.

    Could be Celts or Proto-Celts (Iron Age is more recent in Britain).

    BBs probably spoke a PIE dialect, which evolved in Proto-Italo-Celtic, and splited between different languages (much are unknown as gone extinct before Celtic expansion).

  5. The Following 12 Users Say Thank You to ffoucart For This Useful Post:

     Alain (10-12-2021),  Archetype0ne (10-13-2021),  CopperAxe (10-12-2021),  Hando (10-19-2021),  JMcB (10-12-2021),  jstephan (10-12-2021),  Kopfjger (10-12-2021),  mokordo (10-16-2021),  Psynome (10-12-2021),  Reozek (10-12-2021),  Riverman (10-12-2021),  Ruderico (10-17-2021)

  6. #4

  7. The Following 12 Users Say Thank You to LesPoilus For This Useful Post:

     Alain (10-12-2021),  Cunobelinus_T (10-12-2021),  ffoucart (10-12-2021),  Hando (10-19-2021),  Helen (10-12-2021),  J1 DYS388=13 (10-12-2021),  Jessie (10-14-2021),  JMcB (10-12-2021),  Megalophias (10-12-2021),  pmokeefe (10-13-2021),  Psynome (10-12-2021),  Riverman (10-12-2021)

  8. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by ffoucart View Post
    I am not sure if I understand you. But Celts were an IA culture/civilisation, not a Late Neolithic/Eneolithic one. As explained in the vid, Steppe ancestry arrived in Britain with Bell Beakers, 4500 years ago, with a 90% replacement of the previous population (European Farmers).

    What Reich is saying, is that there was another big replacement at the end of the Bronze Age (around 900 BC), with a 50% replacement of the population (made of BBs descendants). The paper is still in review, so will be published in the next months (end of 2021? 2022?).

    From what we have, even if there was a big replacement 2900 years ago, the new population was not very different from the locals (same components), so probably were also descendants of BBs, but from another European region.

    Could be Celts or Proto-Celts (Iron Age is more recent in Britain).

    BBs probably spoke a PIE dialect, which evolved in Proto-Italo-Celtic, and splited between different languages (much are unknown as gone extinct before Celtic expansion).
    I don't know what you mean by Proto-Italo-Celtic, do you mean some people who spoke Proto-Italo-Celtic (!!) migrated to Italo-Celtic lands and then some other people who spoke Proto-Italic and Proto-Celtic languages migrated to these lands? For what reason we shouldn't consider the first people as non-Indo-European?

  9. #6
    Registered Users
    Posts
    3,467
    Sex
    Location
    French Flanders
    Ethnicity
    Northwestern European
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b L21>DF13
    mtDNA (M)
    K1a29a

    France Belgium Flanders Wallonia Occitania France Bretagne
    Quote Originally Posted by ramz View Post
    I don't know what you mean by Proto-Italo-Celtic, do you mean some people who spoke Proto-Italo-Celtic (!!) migrated to Italo-Celtic lands and then some other people who spoke Proto-Italic and Proto-Celtic languages migrated to these lands? For what reason we shouldn't consider the first people as non-Indo-European?
    I don’t understand.

    If, like it does seem, Corded Ware spoken late PIE, so does sub cultures from CW, like Single Graves, from which BBs came. It does mean that BBs spoke late PIE or a dialect of Late PIE. Between the beginning of CW and the end of BBs, we have 1000 years, enough for dialectisation to take place. The last BBs spoke probably something close to a proto italo celtic language. Given the uniformity of BBs, they probably spoke the same language. When BBs disappeared, there was probably a split between different branches of Italo-Celtic, with 2 majors giving rise 1000 years later to Celtic and Italic languages.

    There was probably a dialect continuum in a large part of Western Europe till Roman Conquest.
    Last edited by ffoucart; 10-12-2021 at 11:51 AM.

  10. The Following 7 Users Say Thank You to ffoucart For This Useful Post:

     Alain (10-12-2021),  CopperAxe (10-12-2021),  Hando (10-19-2021),  homunculus (10-12-2021),  JMcB (10-12-2021),  LesPoilus (10-12-2021),  Psynome (10-12-2021)

  11. #7
    You know David Reich is the same person who believes "location of the population that first spoke an Indo-European language was south of the Caucasus Mountains, perhaps in present-day Iran or Armenia."

  12. #8
    Registered Users
    Posts
    2,971
    Sex

    Its the right timing for Celts, let's wait for the paper and data.
    If this is not the Celtic spread, expect another expansion some centuries later...

  13. The Following 7 Users Say Thank You to Riverman For This Useful Post:

     Alain (10-12-2021),  Ariel90 (10-13-2021),  CopperAxe (10-12-2021),  ffoucart (10-12-2021),  Hando (10-19-2021),  Jessie (10-14-2021),  Psynome (10-12-2021)

  14. #9
    Registered Users
    Posts
    3,467
    Sex
    Location
    French Flanders
    Ethnicity
    Northwestern European
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b L21>DF13
    mtDNA (M)
    K1a29a

    France Belgium Flanders Wallonia Occitania France Bretagne
    Quote Originally Posted by ramz View Post
    You know David Reich is the same person who believes "location of the population that first spoke an Indo-European language was south of the Caucasus Mountains, perhaps in present-day Iran or Armenia."
    Nobody's perfect.

    In fact, he switched on this after some results in Anatolia (without Steppe migration in the IVth millenium). Since Wang et al, I think his views have changed a bit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    Its the right timing for Celts, let's wait for the paper and data.
    If this is not the Celtic spread, expect another expansion some centuries later...
    Or a Celtic dialect continuum existed since LBA, and a "Standart Celtic" emerged with Hallstatt and La Tne and imposed itself on other dialects. Difficult to know anyway.

  15. The Following 7 Users Say Thank You to ffoucart For This Useful Post:

     Alain (10-12-2021),  Brent.B (10-13-2021),  CGPF (10-12-2021),  Hando (10-19-2021),  Jessie (10-14-2021),  Psynome (10-12-2021),  Riverman (10-12-2021)

  16. #10
    Registered Users
    Posts
    2,971
    Sex

    Quote Originally Posted by ffoucart View Post
    Or a Celtic dialect continuum existed since LBA, and a "Standart Celtic" emerged with Hallstatt and La Tne and imposed itself on other dialects. Difficult to know anyway.
    We don't know for sure, but its clear it can't be earlier than Western Urnfield and no later than La Tene for most of the British Isles. Some pockets might have been non-Celtic up to more recent times. Nobody really knows.
    Even Western Urnfield and Western Hallstatt were not all Celtic, but these cultures were the first spreaders, no earlier, which fits into EIA and most of the linguistic evidence which is absolutely not in favour of anything before the LBA.

  17. The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to Riverman For This Useful Post:

     Alain (10-12-2021),  ffoucart (10-12-2021),  Hando (10-19-2021),  jstephan (10-12-2021),  Psynome (10-12-2021)

Page 1 of 49 12311 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 254
    Last Post: 06-08-2020, 02:22 PM
  2. Early replacement of West Eurasian male Y chromosomes from the east
    By VladimirTaraskin in forum Ancient (aDNA)
    Replies: 89
    Last Post: 01-01-2020, 05:44 PM
  3. Population Replacement in Early Neolithic Britain
    By rozenfeld in forum Ancient (aDNA)
    Replies: 80
    Last Post: 10-04-2019, 04:51 PM
  4. Ancient Admixture in Human History (Patterson et al 2012)
    By Jean M in forum Autosomal (auDNA)
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 09-07-2012, 10:45 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •