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Thread: 50% replacement in GB Patterson et al in review

  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    I try to make some serious remarks about this migration. Sprockhoff has perfectly shown that there was a very clear and proven connection with Urnfield.

    Still the riddle goes on (Alan and you seem to be confident it was not Urnfield!), but no remark on that. Ok when Sprockhoff can be debunked or such like. Ok, be my guest.

    Till that time....a reaction would be fine, thanks in advance.
    Difficult to comment, given that Urnfield practiced cremation. Overall, it is possible that a link can be made. But a rise in EEF doesn't point to Northern Europe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ffoucart View Post
    Difficult to comment, given that Urnfield practiced cremation. Overall, it is possible that a link can be made. But a rise in EEF doesn't point to Northern Europe.
    Yes indeed. Urnfield is usually seen as the follow up of Tumulus, from Southern Germany/ Northern Alps (upper Rhine/ Upper Danube), with relative higher EEF.

    And Urnfield did left some archeological artifacts:

    In the present context it is instructive to compare the distribution of the main forms of the Late Bronze Age socket hatchet in England. Our spout axes from Lower Saxony are limited to the south-east of England. Portsmouth, Oxford, Cambridge, and Ipswich mark the circle of their distribution, and the agglomeration of the finds in the area of ​​the Thames estuary clearly shows the gateway of their porters (Fig. 69).

    As part of the culture that immigrated to south-east England with the new bronzes and foreign ceramics, rectangular fortifications also appear238a. Such an appearance, unusual for the times on the mainland ocation is in the district of Hümmling near the village of Lahn. Five burial mounds placed in it result in sherds from the Younger Bronze Age and the Early Iron Age, which does not, however, determine the date of the complex itself238

    If the north-western European heel axes appear everywhere in the same old horizon in England as well as on Lower Saxony soil and on the Upper Rhine, this is certainly no coincidence, but rather reflects the true time of the type approximately correctly.

    What, on a superficial view, looks like the unrolling of a consistent and unified popular movement - immigration of Central European urnfield people and the transfer of the same people to England - reveals itself on closer examination to be a multiply coupled process whose unified line only through the power and strength of the trigger Moment is given.
    Last edited by Finn; 10-14-2021 at 07:09 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    Yes indeed. Urnfield is usually seen as the follow up of Tumulus, from Southern Germany/ Northern Alps (upper Rhine/ Upper Danube), with relative higher EEF.

    And Urnfield did left some archeological artifacts:
    I think that the answer lies in France. With more sampling....

    Please note that I posted about influence from Urnfield to Central France, with probably men from Urnfield taking high social position. An DNA sampling could be very interesting on them.

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    FWIW I started a Bronze/Iron Age Britain thread here and we discussed this paper
    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....on-Age-Britain

    From post 54 on sites

    Sites on that chart for that timeframe include

    Rowbarrow site in Salisbury, Wiltshire
    https://www.wessexarch.co.uk/sites/d...w%20report.pdf

    Middle Bronze Age (c. 1600–1100 BC) Inhumation burials
    3.5.1 Four sub-oval inhumation graves were arranged around the outer edge of the ring ditch on its western side (Fig. 3); from the north – 4644, 4673, 4676 and 4662. Samples of human bone dated the burials to the Middle Bronze Age (Appendix 4).
    3.5.2 Grave 4644 (1.3 m x 1.05 m x 0.5 m) was orientated north-west–south-east and cut two earlier, but otherwise undated features (4731 and 4732). The grave contained the burial (4645) of an adult, possibly female laid in a flexed position, on the right side, with the head to the south-east, facing the north-east, and with the lower limbs bent behind the body (Pl. 4). The burial was radiocarbon dated to 1530–1420 cal BC (SUERC-41692, 3213±28 BP). The skeleton was covered by a deposit of densely packed flint nodules. No find were recovered from the grave.
    3.5.3 Grave 4673 (1.3 m x 0.9 m x 0.65 m) was orientated north–south and contained the burial (4672) of an adult, possibly male, laid in a flexed position on the left side with the head to the south, facing east (Pl. 5). The skeleton lay tight up against the western and northern edges of the grave leaving a large space on the base of the grave at the south-east. The burial was radiocarbon dated to 1610–1420 cal BC (SUERC-41699, 3222±28 BP). The skeleton was covered by a deposit of densely packed flint nodules. A fragment of struck and burnt flint and a possibly a piece of displaced human bone were found within this overlying grave fill.
    8
    57815.01

    Rowbarrow, Downton Road, Salisbury, Wiltshire Post-Excavation Assessment and Updated Project Design
    3.5.4 Grave 4676 (0.7 m x 0.6 m x 0.6 m) was orientated broadly north–south, and contained the burial (4679) of an infant laid, against the east side of the grave, in a flexed position on the right side, with the head to the north, facing west (Pl. 6). The arms were bent with the hands under the skull. The burial was radiocarbon dated to 1500–1400 cal BC (SUERC- 41700, 3169±28 BP). A thin layer of soil containing small fragments of chalk overlay the skeleton, above which were flint nodules within a soil matrix.
    3.5.5 Grave 4662 (0.7 m x 0.3 m x 0.12 m) was orientated south-east–north-west, and contained a neonate burial (4663) that was heavily disturbed by later rooting and by the bridleway to its south. The burial had been laid in a flexed position on the right side with the head to the north-east, facing north-west. It was radiocarbon dated to 1510–1400 cal BC (SUERC-41695, 3173±29 BP). The burial was covered with a grey brown silty loam.
    Margetts Pit in Burnham Kent
    https://www.wessexarch.co.uk/our-wor...it-burham-kent
    A field system and associated settlement evidence of Middle Bronze Age date was recorded, and an expansion of occupation in the Late Bronze Age was represented by a number of cremation and inhumation burials, as well as an extensive arrangement of postholes.
    And Cliffs End Farm in Kent
    https://www.wessexarch.co.uk/our-wor...le-thanet-kent

    Excavations at Cliffs End Farm undertaken in 2004/5 uncovered a dense area of archaeological remains including Bronze Age barrows and enclosures, a large prehistoric mortuary feature, and a small early 6th to late 7th century Anglo-Saxon inhumation cemetery. An extraordinary series of human and animal remains were recovered from the Late Bronze Age–Middle Iron Age mortuary feature, revealing a wealth of evidence for mortuary rites including exposure, excarnation and curation
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    Quote Originally Posted by ffoucart View Post
    I think that the answer lies in France. With more sampling....

    Please note that I posted about influence from Urnfield to Central France, with probably men from Urnfield taking high social position. An DNA sampling could be very interesting on them.
    That could also be the case, so it may be and not or.

    Because when the artifacts of the Rhine and Weser-Ems Urnfield groups are found around the Thames it still looks a clear indication....

    This hypotheses of Sprockhoff is at least very clear (google translate):

    Those types who most clearly demonstrate the bond between the Ems-Weser. The axes with ornamental lobes or ribs are used to express the area with north-western Europe. It now deserves a lot of attention that these two types are much more widespread in north-western Europe than in Lower Saxony (Fig. 95). While the axes are found fairly evenly spread over the area of the Central and Lower Weser, the Ems and the Lower Rhine, the finds over there in England are concentrated in a narrow area in the southeast corner of the country in the Lowland, the flatland zone, around the Thames estuary, so that it can hardly be doubted that the two areas are very closely connected, probably also by the people.
    Last edited by Finn; 10-13-2021 at 05:44 PM.

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    Also from post 47 in that thread

    Ordnance Survey Iron Age map of Southern Britain here
    https://archive.org/details/IronAgeS...e/n11/mode/2up

    ...page 9
    ..."To judge from the earliest known examples of the so-called "Celtic Fields", the type of agriculture that formed it economic basis, was already being practiced in southern Britain, along with stock-farming, as far back as the eleventh century B.C...Half way through the Late Bronze Age, in the eighth and seventh centuries, the southeast and east received fresh agricultural settlers from the Late Bronze Age peoples of the continent-westerly groups of the complex of cultures distinguished by urnfields, or cremation-cemeteries-and this movement has some effect even the most distant parts of Britain and on Ireland. "
    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post669441
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    Noticed this on Amazon and thought of you. Seems to be just out this year. Arjan Louwen
    Breaking and Making the Ancestors: Piecing together the urnfield mortuary process in the Lower-Rhine-Basin, ca. 1300 - 400 BC

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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellSince1893 View Post
    Also from post 47 in that thread
    Half eat through the late bronze are is about 1000BC so that is a strange quote you found

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    Quote Originally Posted by ffoucart View Post
    I think that the answer lies in France. With more sampling....

    Please note that I posted about influence from Urnfield to Central France, with probably men from Urnfield taking high social position. An DNA sampling could be very interesting on them.
    Tumulus Lech has extreme high EEF and to some extent some LBA Tollense guys too....


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    Quote Originally Posted by ffoucart View Post
    Well, we will see. But in any case, L21 is not sufficient enough. And we are dealing with migration of closely related populations. Not sure you can find something with ADMIXTURE.
    Patterson would not be claiming a 50% replacement if he didn't have admixture and/or unpaternals to back him up.
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