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Thread: 50% replacement in GB Patterson et al in review

  1. #101
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    I think we’ve been far too quick - myself included - to jump on the indigenous briton holdout bandwagon. I think the uncomfortable truth is that those of us who are of English ancestry are probably more the descendants of the Germanic peoples and then the medieval migrants to England than the indigenous Britons. It will be interesting to see if/how they argue that the genetics of the native Britons made some miraculous and wishful comeback.
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    England, Scotland, Austro-Hungarian Empire, (Galicia Poland) French-Canadian, and Dutch American settlers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sktibo View Post
    I think we’ve been far too quick - myself included - to jump on the indigenous briton holdout bandwagon. I think the uncomfortable truth is that those of us who are of English ancestry are probably more the descendants of the Germanic peoples and then the medieval migrants to England than the indigenous Britons. It will be interesting to see if/how they argue that the genetics of the native Britons made some miraculous and wishful comeback.
    I guess it's undeniable even the Brittons are 'Krauts', and such like stuff, in disguise

    But come on we don't bite....

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    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    Noticed this on Amazon and thought of you. Seems to be just out this year. Arjan Louwen
    Breaking and Making the Ancestors: Piecing together the urnfield mortuary process in the Lower-Rhine-Basin, ca. 1300 - 400 BC
    Yes....thanks. Even online for free that's a real Dutch suitable solution....
    https://www.sidestone.com/books/brea...-the-ancestors

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  7. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by sktibo View Post
    I think we’ve been far too quick - myself included - to jump on the indigenous briton holdout bandwagon. I think the uncomfortable truth is that those of us who are of English ancestry are probably more the descendants of the Germanic peoples and then the medieval migrants to England than the indigenous Britons. It will be interesting to see if/how they argue that the genetics of the native Britons made some miraculous and wishful comeback.
    The question is also who is "indigenous" Briton, because it depends on the time and period in question. Like some of the Celtic tribes at the time of Caesar were fairly recent continental migrants and conquerors from the Northern French-Belgic territory. I also think that a lof ot the overlap between British people and Germans comes from Anglo-Saxons, Vikings, Normans and more modern migrants, but there will be also an overlap of specific Celtic and provincial Roman ancestry. But this Celtic ancestry too might have been a fairly recent newcomer to the Isles too. We'll see.
    Fact is Britain and Germany had a lot in common through the ages, from the early Neolithics (very similar) to Bell Beakers (very similar) to Celts (very similar) to Anglo-Saxons (very similar). Its only that a large portion of the populatoin on the Isles drifted from Bell Beaker times on that there is some real significant difference at all, though a lot might be also attributed to the different influences working on Germans, especially more Slavic and Romance ancestry in comparison.

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  9. #105
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    By the way, if we assume for a second that the 50% turn-over did reach as far as Scotland and Ireland (highly unlikely IMO), then we may already have a hint of that in the form of the York gladiators. The non-R-L21 samples from that study are R-DF19, R-L2, and R-U106. From what I recall they had an autosomal resemblance to Iron Age Britons and modern Welsh populations. The caveat is that these could've been Roman captives from across the channel/Low Countries, but maybe not.
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543 >> PR5365, Pietro Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

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  11. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    Half eat through the late bronze are is about 1000BC so that is a strange quote you found
    From page 12 of the 1962 Ordinance Survey Map of Southern Britain in the Iron Age https://archive.org/details/IronAgeS...mages/mode/2up
    According to some sources the Late Bronze Age (LBA) in Britain ran from 1000–700 BC (Start of 11th through beginning of 7th century BC), so it's a little past the half way point, but "in the eight and seventh centuries" isn't way off.
    In Ireland it was even later...mid 6th.
    1000–900 BC: Late Urnfield: socketed axes, palstaves (also lead).
    800–700 BC: Ewart Park Phase, Llyn Fawr Phase: leaf-shaped swords.
    In Ireland the final Dowris phase of the Late Bronze Age appears to decline in about 600 BC, but iron metallurgy does not appear until about 550 BC.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronze_Age_Britain#Adk08
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  13. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellSince1893 View Post
    From page 12 of the 1962 Ordinance Survey Map of Southern Britain in the Iron Age https://archive.org/details/IronAgeS...mages/mode/2up


    According to some sources the Late Bronze Age (LBA) in Britain ran from 1000–700 BC (Start of 11th through beginning of 7th century BC), so it's a little past the half way point, but "in the eight and seventh centuries" isn't way off.
    In Ireland it was even later...mid 6th.
    1000–900 BC: Late Urnfield: socketed axes, palstaves (also lead).
    800–700 BC: Ewart Park Phase, Llyn Fawr Phase: leaf-shaped swords.
    In Ireland the final Dowris phase of the Late Bronze Age appears to decline in about 600 BC, but iron metallurgy does not appear until about 550 BC.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronze_Age_Britain#Adk08
    This puts things into perspective, because it means that in Ireland the same shifts took place up to 700 years later than were it started, in the Carpathian sphere. Ireland was affected the latest and only by intermediates from Britain.
    This must be considered but won't change the fact that they were brought into the Celtic world, one way or another, by foreigners from Britain and ultimately the continent.

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    Obviously if there is a rise in ENF in southern Britain in the late Bronze Age then you need a plausible source population which:

    1. Has significantly at higher ENF
    2. Has a location and experience of seafaring that makes seaborne migration plausible
    3. Exists at the right time
    4. Preferably has archaeologically indicated connections to southern Britain at the right time

    A lot of people have leapt on urnfield but does it tick all those boxes? I don’t think so.

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    Quote Originally Posted by R.Rocca View Post
    By the way, if we assume for a second that the 50% turn-over did reach as far as Scotland and Ireland (highly unlikely IMO), then we may already have a hint of that in the form of the York gladiators. The non-R-L21 samples from that study are R-DF19, R-L2, and R-U106. From what I recall they had an autosomal resemblance to Iron Age Britons and modern Welsh populations. The caveat is that these could've been Roman captives from across the channel/Low Countries, but maybe not.
    The DF19 guy, 6DRIF23, looked a lot like a local. But by this time (~250AD) there was also ample opportunity for him to be the offspring of an earlier Roman-era movement of NWEuro foederati troops or Belgae refugees:



    From one of my earlier screeds
    From the timeline I posted earlier, a section with new comment:
    c.140s

    Ptolemy confirms the location of the Belgae, and ascribes to them the towns of Aquae Calidae ('The Hot Waters' otherwise known as Aquae Sulis, modern Bath in Somerset), Iscalis (location uncertain, but placed by Ptolemy at the mouth of the River Axe, near Bawdrip in Somerset), and Venta Belgarum. The last is the principal tribal centre but is given no special attribution. A bank and ditch is built around it during this century.

    Other settlements include Abona (Sea Mills, Avon) a port which serves Aquae Sulis and which is located on the Severn Estuary, and Sorviodunum (Old Sarum in Hampshire), an Iron Age hill fort which has been re-used by the Romans as a posting station.

    3rd century

    A stone wall is added to the defensive bank and ditch around Venta Belgarum. By this period the city contains many fine Roman buildings, including temples and a forum, and is the fifth largest city by area in Roman Britain. Two cemeteries exist, one outside the northern gate and one to the east.

    It is probably in this century that Aquae Sulis gains defensive walls, in common with many cities in Britain. The road junction to the north of the temple complex is left outside the walls, and the area within them is progressively developed, suggesting occupation is concentrated behind the defences. However, there is some development along the roadside to the north, along with a cemetery which continues to be used. The baths begin to decline in the late fourth century, but the springs continue to be used.

    4th century

    By this period another settlement can be found at Clavsentum (Bitterne in Hampshire). It is a fortified port which serves Venta Belgarum. By the 340s, development work comes to a halt in Venta, part of a general decline in Roman cities at this time, and bastions are added to the town wall as the defences are beefed up. At the same time there is evidence of alien elements in the population which grave goods and burial rites suggest are of South German origin. These may be laeti, barbarians settled in the area of the city to aid in its defence.

    Venta Belgarum
    The Roman city of Venta Belgarum was apparently prosperous and well-sited - and also extremely well built as parts of it still stand almost two thousand years later
    [Somewhere in the previous century or two, the "headless" Roman York/Eboracum auxiliaries/gladiators were buried (and not cremated). They include typical Isles L21, but also "more continental" subclades of U152, DF19, and U106, to say nothing of our friend from somewhere near Egypt.]

    5th century

    By the fifth century the Romano-British Belgae have regained some level of independent control in the form of the postulated territory of Caer Gwinntguic. The territory may only be an administrative one at first, perhaps developing later into an independent entity as central authority in Britain fades. The city of Aquae Sulis emerged as Caer Baddan, but it now falls under the administrative control of Caer Gloui, not Venta Belgarum.

    MapCaer Gwinntguic (Venta Belgarum)

    From its regional capital at the Roman town of Venta Belgarum (Winchester in Hampshire), the British territory of the Belgae reasserted some form of independence in the early fifth century (if not before). The territory shared a long northern border with Caer Celemion, and also bordered Rhegin to the south-east, Inis Vectis to the south, Dumnonia to the west, and Caer Baddan to the north-west.
    The DF19 (6drif23) is the second oldest DF19 ever found. The oldest was at Oostwoud (West Frisia).
    The U106 guys (two different subclades) are the fourth and fifth oldest U106 found ... the third oldest U106 was at (wait for it) Oostwoud.
    c. 175-225 AD, 3 Driffield Terrace, York, England, 3drif-16, U106/S21 > Z381/S263 > S264/Z156 > Z305 > Z307 > S265/Z304 > DF96 > ~18274596-G-A > S11515 > L1/S26
    c. 275-375 AD, 6 Driffield Terrace, York, England, 6drif-3, U106/S21 > Z381/S263 > S264/Z156 > Z305 > Z307 > S265/Z304 > ~22365047-G-A > S1911 > S1894 > FGC14818 > FGC14823 > FGC14814

    Despite the "continental" uniparental, 6DT23 looks autosomally close to samples of insular Britons, although the full timeline shows how both can be true with the multigenerational residency of what were originally continental foederati as well as Belgae refugees. And to me, 6DT22 (the U152 guy) looks more FOB west germanic/Belgae than British.
    The original 200 BC - 550 AD timeline post with longer chronology:
    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post781907

    6DT23 is a DF19>DF88>FGC11833 >S4281>S4268>Z17112 like me and like VK333; however 6DT23 is on a different branch than us after Z17112, which dates to somewhere around the Bronze Age Collapse.

    Interestingly there are Swedes all over his branch Z17075, but they (and 90%+ of the branch members) are L644+ where he and one Anglo/British family are L644-.
    If you scroll over to the right you will see 6DT23's small group, compared to the much larger (continental?) L644+ contingent:
    https://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.ph...369&star=false

    So it's still possible his ancestors really did leave the continent much earlier than the main DF19 pack. There are also a few DF19 subclades that only have Isles members (like Clan Grant), and it's not clear if they, too, may be earlier arrivals, or just didn't leave anyone on the continent when they got to the Isles later.

    Yfull's look at his subclade is below. Yfull didn't even know that Z17075 could be L644- until last month and still shows it as one block except in the "Live" setting.
    I have asked them to show 6DT23 but maybe his coverage isn't good enough for them:
    https://www.yfull.com/live/tree/R-S17075/
    R1b>M269>L23>L51>L11>P312>DF19>DF88>FGC11833 >S4281>S4268>Z17112>BY44243

    Ancestors: Francis Cooke (M223/I2a2a) b1583; Hester Mahieu (Cooke) (J1c2 mtDNA) b.1584; Richard Warren (E-M35) b1578; Elizabeth Walker (Warren) (H1j mtDNA) b1583;
    John Mead (I2a1/P37.2) b1634; Rev. Joseph Hull (I1, L1301+ L1302-) b1595; Benjamin Harrington (M223/I2a2a-Y5729) b1618; Joshua Griffith (L21>DF13) b1593;
    John Wing (U106) b1584; Thomas Gunn (DF19) b1605; Hermann Wilhelm (DF19) b1635

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    Quote Originally Posted by ffoucart View Post
    No, I don't think so. The level during MBA is 30/35%, and with the surge we can see something like 40%. Not much on overall, but significative enough.

    If a 50% replacement is correct, the incoming population could have between 40 and 50% of EEF. Clearly not from Northern Europe, and not enough to be from Iberia (which could be tested easily since Olalde). Hence why I think of France. The abstract is also pointing to France.

    I've read the Brunel's paper to look after clues, but not enough samples for the regions which could help to solve the problem.
    I’d agree with northern France and northern France c.900-700BC remains in the Atlantic network - recalling that most Hallstatt C material there has been shown to actually be a misnomer and had Atlantic (mostly British) origins. Earlier on this thread I posted a couple of detailed papers on this and they basically said its been shown that they’re isn’t s shift in northern France to west Central Europe until Hallstatt D c. 620BC. That makes any migration from northern France around 900BC-700BC a migration of French Atlantic Bronze Age people.

    You can likely rule the Iberian part of the Atlantic bronze network out because Iberia broke off early from the network before 900BC so their connectivity with France and Britain decreased around then.

    As others have said, it seems unlikely that the Low Countries area would raise ENF

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