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Thread: 50% replacement in GB Patterson et al in review

  1. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    I also think that a lof ot the overlap between British people and Germans comes from Anglo-Saxons, Vikings, Normans and more modern migrants, but there will be also an overlap of specific Celtic and provincial Roman ancestry. But this Celtic ancestry too might have been a fairly recent newcomer to the Isles too. We'll see.
    Absolutely. What is not often discussed is the shared ancestry across the North Sea and the English Channel between groups, groups that any Germanic settlers would have also been mixing with before arriving in Britain. Commoners in northern France, for example, probably wouldn't have been all that different to commoners in Kent following the withdrawal of Rome.
    Last edited by Brittunculi; 10-14-2021 at 01:26 AM. Reason: Terminology

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  3. #112
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    When we say 50% replacement in GB, what do we understand by this?

    Does this 50% apply to Scotland or even northern England and Wales? I would expect this to be an average and that the replacement is greater in the south. I am always wary of statements that apply a generalization. Naturally I am interested in the region my families are from which is the northwest of England. I would like to know if there is any data from this area. Probably not.
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  5. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    Obviously if there is a rise in ENF in southern Britain in the late Bronze Age then you need a plausible source population which:

    1. Has significantly at higher ENF
    2. Has a location and experience of seafaring that makes seaborne migration plausible
    3. Exists at the right time
    4. Preferably has archaeologically indicated connections to southern Britain at the right time

    A lot of people have leapt on urnfield but does it tick all those boxes? I don’t think so.
    Still on the old stuff after Mitch's reference from one of my favourite publications, but with an Italian twist this time. This is a slightly different idea I'd like to add to the mix regarding the upcoming paper. This publication is from the British Museum, 1925, and it's particularly interesting that "the best authenticated specimens come from the Thames, Hants and Suffolk" rather than the north. In any case it's certainly a reminder of how much we potentially have to learn about the movements and influences of the time.

    PXL_20211013_225036377_copy_756x1008.jpg

    PXL_20211013_225102615_copy_756x1008.jpg

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    Last edited by JonikW; 10-13-2021 at 11:48 PM.
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  7. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by G Livesey View Post
    When we say 50% replacement in GB, what do we understand by this?

    Does this 50% apply to Scotland or even northern England and Wales? I would expect this to be an average and that the replacement is greater in the south. I am always wary of statements that apply a generalization. Naturally I am interested in the region my families are from which is the northwest of England. I would like to know if there is any data from this area. Probably not.
    I would understand it to be 50% replacement at the sites in the study, mostly in southern England.
    Last edited by MitchellSince1893; 10-14-2021 at 12:06 AM.
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  9. #115
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    Brunel found Early Bronze Age to Iron Age continuity in France and Cassidy the same in Ireland. Maybe those R-DF19, R-U106, and R-L2 gladiators are leftovers of a light migration into southern England, but to extrapolate that to somehow signal the arrival of Celtic languages to Britain in Ireland makes no sense. Even if some here are having dreams about mighty Urnfield being responsible for Celtic speech so as not to have their Y-DNA left out of the IE party once again, R-DF19 and R-U106 have already been found in EBA Netherlands and R-L2 couldn't have been too far behind. At best, this is all likely Celtic speakers mixing with other Celtic speakers across the channel.
    Last edited by R.Rocca; 10-14-2021 at 12:43 AM.
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    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

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  11. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellSince1893 View Post
    I would understand it to be 50% replacement at the sites in the study, mostly in southern England.
    There is a cline of northeast to southwest, where the saxons (settlements/buriels) are to the east of the cline. I would be interested to see if this is apparent in the DNA, either modern or ancient.
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  13. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Webb View Post
    This is from Lara Cassidy's Thesis:

    "Bronze Age Continuity
    The third and final population of Ireland that can be considered as a discrete genetic entity arrives in the Chalcolithic period (2,500-2,200 BC), likely alongside metallurgy and aspects of Beaker culture. It is at this horizon that a new component of ancestry in ADMIXTURE analysis, originating in pastoralist cultures of the Pontic Steppe, enters the island, also visualised in the dramatic eastward shift of Irish genetic variation in PCA. Importantly, no clear distinction can be made between the populations of Early Bronze Age, Iron Age and Modern Ireland, in either PCA or ADMIXTURE analysis. Also at this juncture, in striking contrast with the previous Mesolithic to Neolithic transition, male lineages witness a near complete turnover. R1b-L151 haplogroups, which segregate with the Atlantic Modal Haplotype (Y Chromosome Consortium 2002), dominate in the island’s population from this point in time onwards, with the subclabe R1b-L21, closely associated with the modern Irish population, occurring in the vast majority of Bronze and Iron Age samples. Conversely, the mitochondrial make-up of the population remains relatively similar to the preceding Neolithic, albeit with several steppe-related lineages appearing at this time (U2, I, W) (Haak et al. 2015)."

    So it seems Lara Cassidy's findings in Ireland don't match the 50% replacement seen in GB in Patterson's findings.
    You can easily compare the Irish/British Bronze Age samples with modern Irish, and see that the latter has 3.2-5.2% more EEF, so I'm not sure how much such statements can be trusted.

    Code:
    Target: Scotland_MBA
    Distance: 3.5360% / 0.03535981
    51.0	Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    32.8	TUR_Barcin_N
    16.2	WHG
    
    Target: England_MBA
    Distance: 3.7488% / 0.03748788
    51.6	Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    32.6	TUR_Barcin_N
    15.8	WHG
    
    Target: IRL_BA
    Distance: 3.8165% / 0.03816471
    54.6	Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    30.8	TUR_Barcin_N
    14.6	WHG
    
    Target: Irish
    Distance: 4.9124% / 0.04912391
    50.0	Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    36.0	TUR_Barcin_N
    14.0	WHG
    Last edited by Molfish; 10-14-2021 at 04:10 AM.

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  15. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by sktibo View Post
    I think we’ve been far too quick - myself included - to jump on the indigenous briton holdout bandwagon. I think the uncomfortable truth is that those of us who are of English ancestry are probably more the descendants of the Germanic peoples and then the medieval migrants to England than the indigenous Britons. It will be interesting to see if/how they argue that the genetics of the native Britons made some miraculous and wishful comeback.
    That's no uncomfortable truth! Neither the idea of massive Celtic migration from the continent. Both in line with the traditional founding mythology. Each to their own though.
    Last edited by Molfish; 10-14-2021 at 03:39 AM.

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  17. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by G Livesey View Post
    When we say 50% replacement in GB, what do we understand by this?

    Does this 50% apply to Scotland or even northern England and Wales? I would expect this to be an average and that the replacement is greater in the south. I am always wary of statements that apply a generalization. Naturally I am interested in the region my families are from which is the northwest of England. I would like to know if there is any data from this area. Probably not.
    I recall Reich specifying the 50% number for Southern Britain, but not Northern Britain.

    From about 1:03:00 here:

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  19. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    Obviously if there is a rise in ENF in southern Britain in the late Bronze Age then you need a plausible source population which:

    1. Has significantly at higher ENF
    2. Has a location and experience of seafaring that makes seaborne migration plausible
    3. Exists at the right time
    4. Preferably has archaeologically indicated connections to southern Britain at the right time

    A lot of people have leapt on urnfield but does it tick all those boxes? I donít think so.
    Andour mentioned in this thread about the Welzin samples being high in Anatolia_Barcin_N. 41.6 to 46.6. Iím not familiar with them.

    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post755216
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