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Thread: 50% replacement in GB Patterson et al in review

  1. #121
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    This is a map of Atlantic Bronze Age France in 900-800BC which is the Hallstatt B late urnfield period in Central European chronology. This is a map of the exact period the shift was noted inAD3C0B83-FF37-42C1-91EC-1D92A97A92BA.png

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  3. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    This is a map of Atlantic Bronze Age France in 900-800BC which is the Hallstatt B late urnfield period in Central European chronology. This is a map of the exact period the shift was noted inAD3C0B83-FF37-42C1-91EC-1D92A97A92BA.png
    Both in Ireland and Lusitania the collapse was rather in the 7-6th century BC. I think that final demise of the Atlantic Bronze Age system should be of ethnic-genetic importance in many regions of Western Europe.

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    This is a map of Atlantic Bronze Age France in 900-800BC which is the Hallstatt B late urnfield period in Central European chronology. This is a map of the exact period the shift was noted inAD3C0B83-FF37-42C1-91EC-1D92A97A92BA.png

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  7. #124
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    regarding celtic I perhaps may have found two ( very basal ) convergence between celtic and germanic

    Old irish braon, a drop, rain, so Ir., O. Ir. broen

    Middle English rein, from Old English regn "rain, descent of water in drops through the atmosphere," from Proto-Germanic *regna- (source also of Old Saxon regan, Old Frisian rein, Middle Dutch reghen, Dutch regen, German regen, Old Norse regn, Gothic rign "rain"), with no certain cognates outside Germanic, unless it is from a presumed PIE *reg- "moist, wet,"

    this is even more important

    Old Irish comas, comus, power, Ir. cumas, E. Ir. commus, proto-celtic *com-mestu-,
    *mestu-, from med, as in meas

    MUST

    auxiliary of prediction, "be obliged, be necessarily impelled," from Old English moste, past tense of motan "have to, be able to," from Proto-Germanic *motanan (source also of Old Saxon motan "to be obliged to, have to," Old Frisian mota, Middle Low German moten, Dutch moeten, German müssen "to be obliged to," Gothic gamotan "to have room to, to be able to"), perhaps from PIE root *med- "take appropriate measures," but this old suggestion lately has been doubted.

    It is clear that originally motanam had the same meaning of have the power to rather than the one of obligation

  8. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    Obviously if there is a rise in ENF in southern Britain in the late Bronze Age then you need a plausible source population which:

    1. Has significantly at higher ENF
    2. Has a location and experience of seafaring that makes seaborne migration plausible
    3. Exists at the right time
    4. Preferably has archaeologically indicated connections to southern Britain at the right time

    A lot of people have leapt on urnfield but does it tick all those boxes? I don’t think so.
    I think it's both Northern France, out to Belgium, and the Lower Rhine/ Ems area in Unrfield:

    1. Ashes to ashes....still Tumulus Lech had a very high EEF just to some extend some LBA Tollense guys:
    \
    2. In the case of Lower Rhine and Ems without question (even long before the BB from the same kind of area's known the waterway to the Isles).
    3. It did.
    4 Sprockhoff:
    Those types who most clearly demonstrate the bond between the Ems-Weser. The axes with ornamental lobes or ribs are used to express the area with north-western Europe. It now deserves a lot of attention that these two types are much more widespread in north-western Europe than in Lower Saxony (Fig. 95). While the axes are found fairly evenly spread over the area of the Central and Lower Weser, the Ems and the Lower Rhine, the finds over there in England are concentrated in a narrow area in the southeast corner of the country in the Lowland, the flatland zone, around the Thames estuary, so that it can hardly be doubted that the two areas are very closely connected, probably also by the people.
    Last edited by Finn; 10-14-2021 at 07:47 AM.

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  10. #126
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    1st: I think many of you have already take a look at this previous vid by Reich from march 21:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QoGmPJJS3X8

    The part with the chart:
    Capture march 21.JPG

    We can see samples from Scotland. They also may have more EEF during IA than during MBA (green spots). Difficult to say as the difference is thin.

    The reference is Patterson in revision (not in review as it is in the vid from july 21)

    We can see that more samples have been added in July.

    2d: I am asked to post Patterson's abstract. I don't have it, and I don't think it has been published yet. But, some of its content are included in another abstract, posted in the 1st page of this thread:
    Quote Originally Posted by LesPoilus View Post
    Genetic Change and population movement C. 1200 BCE: a view from the North and West by Ian Armit et al
    Nick Patterson and David Reich are cited as co-authors.

    So, we have spoilers from the main paper. "focusing on Britain but including substantial new datasets for areas of continental Europe, has also identified major genetic changes in the Middle-Late Bronze Age (c. 1300-800 BCE). In Britain specifically, a rise in ancestry derived from Early European Farmers (EEF) appears to represent an influx of people from a region most likely located in presen-day France. Due to a paucity of aDNA coverage in the potential source region(s), it is presently impossible to determine whether the movement of people was reciprocal or unidirectional. It is striking, however that many of those who moved appear to have been female. Similar genetic changes are evident in the Netherlands and Czechia, although based on fewer samples, while in Iberia we see a decrease in EEF ancestry."

    So, if Reich was only refering to Southern Britain, it was from an older version of the paper. In the new version (july 21), it is about Britain, but we should consider a wider change. If I read between lines, they are working on a migration from a single population, richer in EEF that people in Britain, but poorer than in Iberia, which expanded everywhere from Czechia to Britain and Netherlands, and to Iberia.

    I also think they are trying to have access to samples from France to test their theory about a source there.

    I am rather skeptical about a nearly only female-derived admixture. As said previously, some people are putting too much amphisis on Y haplogroups. In all likehood, incoming populations did have the sames. L21 is not specific to British Islands, if I may (some people seem to completely forget that L21>DF13 likely came from the Continent with BBs).
    Last edited by ffoucart; 10-14-2021 at 09:03 AM.

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  12. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    This is a map of Atlantic Bronze Age France in 900-800BC which is the Hallstatt B late urnfield period in Central European chronology. This is a map of the exact period the shift was noted inAD3C0B83-FF37-42C1-91EC-1D92A97A92BA.png
    Also worth noting that Atlantic France was the immediate link with Atlantic Iberia in the period 1100-900BC so there could well have been some geneflow between elites via alliance marriages and some others into northern France. That could have caused a rise in ANF in northern France Also worth noting that a chunk of northern France was kind of an overlap zone between Rhenish and Iberian type influenced in the beaker phase so the beaker people in northern France, especially west of the Seine, might never have been as low in ANF as Britain.

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  14. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by ffoucart View Post
    1st: I think many of you have already take a look at this previous vid by Reich from march 21:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QoGmPJJS3X8

    The part with the chart:
    Capture march 21.JPG
    Thanks. Looks like the average EEF fraction went up in Scotland over time, too, but more more modestly than in England. There is even an IA Tancred Quarry outlier (North Yorkshire, so way up there) with ~55% EEF. And the Carsington Pasture outlier at ~600 BC has around 50%, too.
    Ελευθερία ή θάνατος.

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  16. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by R.Rocca View Post
    Brunel found Early Bronze Age to Iron Age continuity in France and Cassidy the same in Ireland. Maybe those R-DF19, R-U106, and R-L2 gladiators are leftovers of a light migration into southern England, but to extrapolate that to somehow signal the arrival of Celtic languages to Britain in Ireland makes no sense. Even if some here are having dreams about mighty Urnfield being responsible for Celtic speech so as not to have their Y-DNA left out of the IE party once again, R-DF19 and R-U106 have already been found in EBA Netherlands and R-L2 couldn't have been too far behind. At best, this is all likely Celtic speakers mixing with other Celtic speakers across the channel.
    Iain Mc Donald.
    R-L1 is very German, but splits into R-BY40256, which is not very Germany, and R-BY743, which is. All R-BY743 clades appear suitably German, so a migration to Germany probably happened shortly before the R-BY743 common ancestor. There are caveats to this, so we can't be absolutely sure, but it's a reasonable estimate until proven wrong.
    Seen the results on Y-full (when they are right), created 1000 BC, TMRCA 800 BC....so most probably Urnfield spread.

    The Lower Rhineland and the Ems Urnfield groups. in Arjan Louwen (2021):


    The timing derived from the Reich lecture, with an arrow at Thame, that was the area were Sprockchoff spotted the resemblance with the Lower Rhineland/ Ems Urnfield groups:
    Last edited by Finn; 10-14-2021 at 08:39 AM.

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    What the chart, in my opinion also clearly shows, is that there were two succeeding changes:
    One in the Later Bronze Age, most likely associated with Urnfielders, and a second at the transition to the Iron Age. The first might have spread new ancestry without destroying the local structures, while the second did. It's also the second which did reach Ireland and Iberia, causing the final collapse of what remained of the Atlantic system up to this point.
    I guess the second wave will be way more male driven and clearly Celtic, whereas I'm less sure about the first.

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