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Thread: 50% replacement in GB Patterson et al in review

  1. #141
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    The samples range from 1200 BC to 400 AD. It appears that moderns have more EEF than even Roman-era samples, but it is worth waiting for more samples to get a more detailed picture.

    [1] "distance%=3.2865"

    Ajeje Brazorf

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    IRAN_N,8.8
    ANE,6.4
    WHG,4.2
    TAFORALT,1.6

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  3. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by ffoucart View Post
    If there is a combination of several factors, why not? Small population, demographic crisis and the sort, all combined. But to all Britain, and, as it seems, in a large part of Western Europe? Because the new point is that Britain could be an example of a wider phenomenon. Czechia or Netherlands are cited too.
    Yes ffoucart because of this:
    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post807965

    Somehow you or Alan seem to refuse (from some kind of reason) that Urnfield had a major impact on the Netherlands even especially the outmost NE Netherlands.....#strangeimo

  4. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    In patrilocal elites whose prestige is highly linked to trade/exchange, I think it’s totally possible that there was a constant fairly long distance flow of wives.
    We know it from Eastern Hallstatt, with Thraco-Scythian and Basarabi women coming in, as elite brides, especially in some groups like Frög. However, this was after an initial more male dominated impact. So its like first came male elites, took over, then those male elites kept ties to their brethren and distant cousins, marrying wives from the allies and relatives on a regular basis. But even then there was a constant flow of men and women.
    Anyway, the only way for a "female mediated" shift to happen is that a new group came in, didn't make it, the males were slaughtered and the females taken by the locals. I don't think that was the case, but that's the only alternative to a full scale colonisation of the locals. Any kind of "mass bride effect" is ridiculous. This was, like in Eastern Hallstatt, something for the elites and specialists, especially those with a background from those people in question.
    Even the Lech case is peculiar, as it might be some sort of "unwanted alliance" with the then dominant Unetice ruling elites with the subordinated local Bell Beakers. But there are a lot of possible scenarios to explore, with more data at hand.

    What I'm particularly interested in is whether those clouds of dots represent regional trends. Like did the newcomers first land in one place, then spread from there successively. That's also a key factor, how the spread happened in detail, not just the overall effect.

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  6. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    We know it from Eastern Hallstatt, with Thraco-Scythian and Basarabi women coming in, as elite brides, especially in some groups like Frög. However, this was after an initial more male dominated impact. So its like first came male elites, took over, then those male elites kept ties to their brethren and distant cousins, marrying wives from the allies and relatives on a regular basis. But even then there was a constant flow of men and women.
    Anyway, the only way for a "female mediated" shift to happen is that a new group came in, didn't make it, the males were slaughtered and the females taken by the locals. I don't think that was the case, but that's the only alternative to a full scale colonisation of the locals. Any kind of "mass bride effect" is ridiculous. This was, like in Eastern Hallstatt, something for the elites and specialists, especially those with a background from those people in question.
    Even the Lech case is peculiar, as it might be some sort of "unwanted alliance" with the then dominant Unetice ruling elites with the subordinated local Bell Beakers. But there are a lot of possible scenarios to explore, with more data at hand.

    What I'm particularly interested in is whether those clouds of dots represent regional trends. Like did the newcomers first land in one place, then spread from there successively. That's also a key factor, how the spread happened in detail, not just the overall effect.
    And it was already usual in MBA times, I guess I "spammed" the whole thing here with the "Hungarian bride" of Fallingbostel.



    That most probably didn't stop in LBA, on the contrary.

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  8. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    What is the exact date of the Scottish sample?
    I3130; 984-826 BC; Covesea Caves, Moray; Scotland; Scotland_LBA; F; U5a1c

    I2861; 983-826 BC; Covesea Caves, Moray; Scotland; Scotland_LBA; F; I2a1

    I2860; 970-812 BC; Covesea Caves, Moray; Scotland; Scotland_LBA; M; R1b1a1a2a1a2-P312>Z40481>FGC84729>ZZ37>ZZ38>Z30597; H5a1

    I2859; 912-808 BC; Covesea Caves, Moray; Scotland; Scotland_LBA; M; R1b1a1a2a1a2c1-L21>DF13; K1a2c

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  10. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    Yes ffoucart because of this:
    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post807965

    Somehow you or Alan seem to refuse (from some kind of reason) that Urnfield had a major impact on the Netherlands even especially the outmost NE Netherlands.....#strangeimo
    I never said that. I’ve been purely talking about France. I don’t think NE Netherlands can be a source of either high ANF or Celtic speakers. So I’ve been totally focused on France. I also looked at the Bronze Age of northern France and in the period 900-800BC it’s all Atlantic. I actually agree that there is urnfield finally reaching access to the sea coast when you get as Far East as the Rhine and beyond but I have no idea if that is down to invasion or influence.

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  12. #147
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    This from Pangae Your DNA Portal, the result of my father.

    Of course like any admixture to be taken with some salt.

    I only want to show that for a North Dutch as he is not only close to the Germanic/ Anglo-Saxon like component, but it contains also a component that has probably a relationship with Bronze Age, with the LBA 'happenings'. Just a hunch.

    Last edited by Finn; 10-14-2021 at 12:08 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    I never said that. I’ve been purely talking about France. I don’t think NE Netherlands can be a source of either high ANF or Celtic speakers. So I’ve been totally focused on France. I also looked at the Bronze Age of northern France and in the period 900-800BC it’s all Atlantic. I actually agree that there is urnfield finally reaching access to the sea coast when you get as Far East as the Rhine and beyond but I have no idea if that is down to invasion or influence.
    Ok point taken point clear my impression was that you initially ruled out Urnfield but ok.

    Timing, findings around the Thames and resemblances with the lower Rhine/ especially Ems Urnfield groups (Sprockhoff) are very clear.

    Reich's lecture seems to suggest it weren't only the pots.....
    Last edited by Finn; 10-14-2021 at 12:51 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    I never said that. I’ve been purely talking about France. I don’t think NE Netherlands can be a source of either high ANF or Celtic speakers. So I’ve been totally focused on France. I also looked at the Bronze Age of northern France and in the period 900-800BC it’s all Atlantic. I actually agree that there is urnfield finally reaching access to the sea coast when you get as Far East as the Rhine and beyond but I have no idea if that is down to invasion or influence.
    ....and on second thought, why can't an Urnfield group from the Netherlands/ bordering Lower Saxony not have had high ENF, neither spoke some kind of Celtic language?

    These are some thoughts Alan:
    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post807965

    Feel free to debunk it.....

    PS Nice quote from Davidski, when he had developed his Celtic vs Germanic:
    And I think the level of Celtic ancestry in the Low Countries is somewhat higher than most people realize.
    Last edited by Finn; 10-14-2021 at 01:12 PM.

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    What I find some kind of funny is that Sprockhoff a self declared Nordicist, had no single 'problem' with Tumulus MBA and Urnfield LBA in the Weser-Ems area (NE Dutch, West Lower Saxony) to label them as some kind of proto Celtic.

    In present days in times we, based on genetic knowledge, see more and more that a strict dichotomy in Celtic and (West) Germanic ancestry was/is not appropriate, and that there were probably many blurred lines, now we are going to rule out the possibility that an Urnfield group from the Lower Rhine/Ems had Urnfield features (high ENF and speaking some kind of-proto- Celtic)????????
    Last edited by Finn; 10-14-2021 at 01:37 PM.

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